Mercs and drafting


(BAMFana) #1

1. Intro

I’ve been playing the alpha for a few weeks now, trying to get a feel for what the game is like and where it is headed. My impressions so far are that it seems promising, but whether or not it will be a great game depends entirely on the direction Splash Damage takes during development towards beta. One of its most interesting aspects, in my opinion, is the combination of certain MOBA-like features with classic fps gunplay. If this concept was evolved further, I believe it could add enormously to the quality of the game. I’m currently working on a large document detailing my thoughts on this, and other gameplay topics, but as I don’t know how long it will take to finish, I’ve decided to post a concise version of my ideas concerning mercs and drafting.

2. Merc system

My first suggestion is simple: Discard the class based merc system. Design individual mercs instead. While class based games can be a lot of fun, they heavily restrict character design, and limit variety. If the surge in popularity of MOBAs, like Dota 2 and League of Legends, for the past few years has taught us anything, it should be that a large variety of unique mercs creates deep and engaging gameplay with near endless variety. While it is possible to design a pseudo class based system like Extraction currently uses, I believe this approach leads to “neither fish nor fowl” gameplay that fails to satisfy the advantages of either system.

Removing the classes gives you a lot more freedom to design interesting and unique mercs. No longer do you have to give every “medic” a revive ability, or some other arbitrary parameter imposed by what is essentially the first merc in that class. Instead, your only consideration is to create an interesting and unique new player character. With a thousand different games to take inspiration from, this should be pretty easy. For example, what about a merc that can throw stimpacks that temporarily boost weapon damage? A very fast acrobatic merc with a special melee weapon instead of guns? Or what about a merc with a teleport ability?

Doing this also more or less forces you to redesign certain class related mechanics and abilties that, in my opinion, are not working well. My primary example of this would be the ammo dispensing abilities of the fire support mercs, which seem more like a relic of bygone times than a gameplay improving feature. Not only are these boring to use for the fire support player, but it’s also frustrating for all the other players when nobody wants to do it. While not getting medpacks from a medic is acceptable because you can only blame yourself for taking damage anyway, running out of ammo often feels like the game is punishing the player for playing well. The players who run out of ammo are typically the players who get a lot of frags and stay alive for a long time. This has personally forced me to play almost exclusively as fire support in public games in this alpha, as I find myself constantly running out of ammo when I play any other class. This is not good gameplay design. There would obviously have to be some other mechanic in place to allow players to replenish ammo – for example either by buying ammo, returning to base, and/or picking up regularly respawning ammo packs from certain locations on the map.

I would also like to see certain other aspects from MOBA character design carried over, namely per-game stat and ability progression (by “per-game” I mean that they reset between each game). The classic Dota stats are Strength, Agility and Intelligence, and I think it might be feasible to simply use that trio, albeit perhaps with different names to fit better with Extraction’s theme. Strength could serve as a modifier for health, agility as a modifier for recoil and movement speed, and intelligence as a modifier for energy (energy explanation in the next paragraph). The basic idea is that players gain experience for completing certain goals ingame (fragging or assisting in fragging enemies, completing objectives, and possibly certain other narrowly designed goals) which can then add up to a level up, upon which the primary stats increase by a pre-set amount for that specific merc, as well as giving the player a skill point he can use to improve an ability. A per-game stat and ability system would naturally have to be designed in a certain way to prevent gunplay from degenerating, and what I’ve outlined here is just the basic concept, but I think something like this could add a lot more depth and variety to gameplay than the perk system I have seen alluded to in a few posts on here.

Furthermore, I would like to see a third resource added (in addition to ammo and health) called energy. This is simply mana with tech fluff instead of magic fluff. The combination of energy and cooldowns to regulate ability use gives you a lot more flexibility with designing abilities and mercs, as opposed to just using cooldowns like it currently is. For example, this would allow for a much wider range of mercs with support abilities such as medpacks and revive, as well as prevent the revive spam that is currently behind much of the problems with frustrating “meatgrind” gameplay. In combination with per-game stat and ability progression, this allows for interesting design. For example, the fire support air strike ability could drop three bombs at level 1 with a low energy cost and low damage on each bomb, whereas at level 3 it would drop five bombs with a significantly higher energy cost and damage on each bomb.

The combination of the concepts outlined above synergizes quite well, and it should be able to make it work within the fps framework without degenerating the gunplay we fps enthusiasts crave. It also opens up further avenues for adding depth to the game. For example, using per-game stat and ability progression, and the third energy resource, it is possible to design mercs that have peak power during different stages of the game. Some mercs could be designed to be very powerful early in the game, but have slower stat progression or weaker ability improvements, making them weaker later compared to mercs that start out weak but have more powerful progression.

Opposite to this, I don’t think adding “utimate” abilities is a good idea. These are abilities that by their nature have to be enormously powerful, which I believe will adversely affect gunplay too much to be acceptable. Ultimates have a place in MOBAs, but not in fps games. Firefall is perhaps the best example of an fps game that has been ruined by ultimate abilities.

3. Drafting

Accepting and adopting the previous recommendation of removing classes and designing unique mercs also opens up for the addition of one of the most amazing features of Dota 2: Drafting.

The idea is as simple as it is amazing in practice: Each game is played 5v5 – using lobby based matchmaking – with only one player allowed to play as each merc (often referred to as “highlander” in class based games). In order to decide which players get to play as which mercs, however, there is merc draft before each game starts. In Dota 2 Captain’s Mode you have a captain that selects (and bans) mercs for the entire team, but there are other ways of doing this to facilitate non-competitive play – Dota 2’s Allpick mode is one, but I don’t think that is the best solution.

For a short explanation of how drafting works and why it is good, read this: http://www.team-dignitas.net/articles/blogs/DotA/756/Dota-2-A-Beginners-Guide-to-Drafting

Drafting is a huge boon to any game that has the design required to facilitate it – namely a large enough collection of unique player characters that is available to all players. 20 different mercs is my best guess at a minimum number of mercs, but at least 30 would be preferable. Drafting adds, amongst other things, an element of self-balancing gameplay (since overpowered mercs will be the first to be banned), more strategic and tactical interaction between teams, and forces players to be more versatile (rather than simply play the same class/merc every time).

For an exciting example of how it works in practice, watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8HBr1EGX1I – the draft takes place during the first five minutes of the video. This is the final game of the grand final of “The International 3”, the third iteration of the yearly Dota 2 tournament hosted by Valve, this time with a total prize pool of ~$2.9 million (yes, you read that correctly). I don’t even play the game – I try to stick to only fps games, but it’s difficult these days with the lack of good alternatives – but I still sat up all night watching it live, because the tournament was amazing and pro Dota 2 is a lot of fun to watch.

4. Do not rush the beta/release

This is unrelated to the rest of my post, but I’d also like to warn Splash Damage of the dangers of releasing the game before it is ready, both the beta and final release. In 2011/2012 I participated in a similar pre-buy alpha/beta test system for a game called Natural Selection 2, which had its player base decimated by poor first impressions due to rushed beta and final releases. The game has sold around 600k copies in total over the past four years (it was released 31 Oct 2012), yet its daily peak of concurrent players is only around 1000. Having had first-hand experience with it, I’m convinced that one of the most important reasons for its horrible player retention rate is the infamously poor quality of its beta stage and first six months of its post-release, which made a lot of players lose interest in the game permanently.

With pre-paid beta test access, players expect a near-finished game with minor bugs and only a few missing features. If you instead serve them an unfinished game in the hopes that they will test it, then you will get a lot of disgruntled players who will quit the game permanently after a short period; and what’s worse is that they will tell all their friends how bad the game is. This is to be avoided at all costs! For a free to play game, word of mouth and player retention are alpha and omega. These days, “beta access” should be treated as a synonym of “early release access”.

5. Final remarks

Hopefully this thread will serve as a catalyst for moving Extraction towards an interesting design direction ripe with potential for turning this into a fantastic game. I’m sure some of the ET enthusiasts in here will disagree with much of this post, but I urge you to keep an open mind. Making Extraction as just another iteration of the ET formula is not likely to end well for anyone.


(C0l0n) #2

Make it like ET.


(INF3RN0) #3

Troll bait!~


(Protekt1) #4

I don’t think (and hope this they don’t) they’ll use a system that locks you into one character, but I do think they’re doing some sort of pre-match character selection process in order to give teams an opportunity to pick a decent mix of characters. I don’t think they have revealed how this will work precisely yet.


(stealth6) #5

tl;dr:
Merc system
Make it more like Dota. Remove classes and focus on making unique mercs (like Dota). For instance allow a player to buff another players stats.
Remove ammo replenishment or add a way to resupply without field ops.
Add Dota style stats: Strength could serve as a modifier for health, agility as a modifier for recoil and movement speed, and intelligence as a modifier for energy
Energy lets you level up your abilities (ex: airstrike) or using lots of energy on an ability makes it more powerful? (I don’t understand the energy idea very well)
These 2 changes make the matches more dynamic, mercs would be better at different times in the game (early, mid, late)
Don’t implement ultimates

Drafting
See Dota2

Do not rush the beta/release
See title

Final remarks
Keep an open mind, W:ET2 is going to fail anyway.


My thoughts:
I agree with just dumping classes altogether and that’s what I think they’re going to do. (blur the lines and create hybrid classes)

I don’t agree with stats etc, if I want to play a MOBA then I’ll play a MOBA. Mobas are too confusing for me that’s why I play FPS :smiley: if you add all these features and I have to be constantly number juggling to figure out if I have enough DPS etc… KISS

I like the idea of drafting, but at the same time I’d really like to see a way to just play casually too. Not have to worry about screwing up my precious stats (leaderboards)
I know there aren’t leaderboards per se etc in Dota, but every match feels like you have to play properly, competitively, Which definitely creates a different atmosphere.

Nice post, but quite a lot to read and if this is only a fragment of what you’re working on… :eek:


(Samurai.) #6

Nice writing style, was enjoyable to read.

For me personally i have never delved into the Dota/LoL games and therefore i am extremely skeptical at how well these systems you have discussed would fit into Extraction. For me if i want to play a game with loads of “abilities” and “power-ups” etc as the main emphasis on complexity/learning curves/strategy i would jump into some kind of pvp MMO or i guess the above mentioned super popular games of Dota & LoL. This doesn’t mean we should be narrow minded and ignore systems that these successful games have in place, i just think we should be highly selective of where the boundary is for systems that can fit into an FPS game and systems that we should stay away from. Match making is an example of a system that works extremely well in FPS games if implemented correctly but the drafting system you described above doesn’t sound appealing for me from what little knowledge i have of it right now.

In my ideal world I would much rather keep the traditional 5 classes and get rid of the whole individual classless identity of ‘mercs’, narrow the selection of weapons down to a very limited bunch, introduce advanced high skill ceiling game play mechanics and move away from the gimmicky features that are winding their way in to the game… but i also realize that i have a very niche taste that wouldn’t satisfy a large portion of casual players and wouldn’t be such a successful business model for SD to make money so that’s why i am open to more modern open idea’s for Xt.

I also strongly agree with your point about Closed Beta/Release - I just don’t understand why pretty much every game that gets released in recent years is extremely buggy and broken at release, its the ultimate killer in terms of retaining a player base. This is the point of the game where you have all the attention from media hype, you have the peak in customers that are playing your game yet you are killing any enjoyment they would have through all the bugs/laggy servers/broken mechanics you can experience from many games released today.


(.FROST.) #7

To be frank, I haven’t read the OP’s entire thread, YET, but a lot what he’s describing in the merc-section reminds me of the stuff that was already in BRINK. Even though Brink was a class based shooter, those special abilities weren’t tied to a specific character; not really, except if you went for a full blown medic-char, or a fully fleshed-out soldier, etc.,etc… You could’ve had literally thousands of different builds; ONLY ability wise. If you’d have taken the visuals into account as well, it would prolly have summed up to a couple millions.

PS: Will finish reading the entire text later on; now I have to pretend that I’m actually working :wink:


(tokamak) #8

My first suggestion is simple: Discard the class based merc system. Design individual mercs instead. While class based games can be a lot of fun, they heavily restrict character design, and limit variety.

I like it!

You can still keep the overall labels. You can still keep the class agnostic objectives. However, each character will have his/her own parameters in the way objectives can be done.

This means you can have a medic with 50% in construction for some reason, or an assault that is unable to do destruction because he’s got proficiency somewhere else.

You can have really generic characters who can do any objectives (at the cost of being able to fight well?) and characters that can’t do any objective (or one or two very poorly) but excel in other ways.

This truly liberates the devs to balance characters without ruining their diversity. The current class agnostic objective system is way too crude for that.


(S0und_) #9
  1. Mercs:
    First of all, i barely know DOTA2, so don’t rip my head off, if i’m wrong about something.
    Let’s strip down MOBA games to the core. What is your goal in those games, and what you have to do, to win a game? You need to destory the opponent’s main building by DOING damage. I have a question for you, CAN you WIN a game in DOTA, when your enemy does twice as many damage to you, then you do to them? As i sad, i don’t know the game well, but i hardly believe that it’s possible. In MOBA games, everything is about the damage. If you do more damage, if you kill more enemies/creeps, you gain more xp (and money), you will have higher level, and better items then your opponents, and thanks to all of these, you will do even more damage.

In ET or in Xt, how do you win a game? By compliting objectives. How important is the damage, that you deal to your enemies? Well… it is important, but i won a lot of matches in W:ET as an attacker when we did only 1/3 of the damage to our opponents, than they did to us, and still won. Can you do the same thing in any MOBA game? If your answer is no, then it’s time to stop comparing Xt to MOBA games. Because on the core level they have nothing to do to each other. They have similarites, but you are still comparing (imo) apples to pears.
Don’t get me wrong, as a 3rd league team, we cannot beat the best ET team on the world just by pulling off some “special tactics”, because they would just spawncamp us. They raw damage would beat us. But when you compare two similar teams, damage is not that important, good teamwork, well timed attacks count more.

  1. Leveling
    I would like to see a similar leveling system, just like in W:ET. Stuff like level1 light weapons (you spawned with 1 extra ammo clip).

(tokamak) #10

DOTA is definitely not just about dealing damage. I think it’s a pretty good genre to compare ET to when it comes to classes.


(Protekt1) #11

[QUOTE=tokamak;470046]I like it!

You can still keep the overall labels. You can still keep the class agnostic objectives. However, each character will have his/her own parameters in the way objectives can be done.

This means you can have a medic with 50% in construction for some reason, or an assault that is unable to do destruction because he’s got proficiency somewhere else.

You can have really generic characters who can do any objectives (at the cost of being able to fight well?) and characters that can’t do any objective (or one or two very poorly) but excel in other ways.

This truly liberates the devs to balance characters without ruining their diversity. The current class agnostic objective system is way too crude for that.[/QUOTE]

They pretty much have already gotten rid of classes and replaced them with archetypes. This is similar to MOBAs although MOBAs have more archetypes which is fine since the game is a RPG. To be clear, they have tanks, damage dealers, lane focused etc, which is often mixed up more with the difference between magic focused and physical focused types.

I don’t think they should break these archtypes too much. Hard to expand on more that just that statement atm.


(tokamak) #12

They’re a great place to work from. But beyond that? A saboteur covert would have more reason to have a high construction rate than a sniper covert. That’s how it will work out.


(Ruben0s) #13

Moba games have a lot of different characters with a lot of unique powers, problem is moba games are not bound to realism, Xt on the other hand is :frowning:

I wonder how SD can make characters unique if they have to fit in the realistic environment.


(k0k0nat) #14

All this works on Dota2, because the game is completely different.

When I cant kill a guy because he has +Health or +Abilitiepower or (Speed)Buffs on him, I will instant ragequit.

Dont forget that in Dota 2:

You gain Gold for kills, which allows you to buy items which can counter enemy abilities.
Every item can be sold/bought at any time of the game, making your Character very individuel DURING the game.
You lose gold every time you die, you earn gold every time you kill an enemy.
You got save zones like your own base/towers.

Also, even the + on abilitiepoints like intelligence/Str(Health) can be countered with heros like Antimage and Necro. No way this will work in a FPS.

The last games trying to come with MMO/MOBA features AND Shooters fell awful. In my opinion, Firefall for example sucks ass.

BUT:

I like the idea of a draft system, maybe where you can ban specific items/abilites/loadouts for your team and the enemy team.

Also agree that making a “ET”-Game will not work in 2013/2014. Still, the maps of Enemy Territory where much better.

One of the most important things for FPS is, that the chances for every player to succeed are even. This will become super-difficult with all these elements in it.


(trickykungfu) #15

Nice to read but i think many points don’t fit better in a pay to win game. SD don’t wonna go this way so they are very limited…
For example a Medic that gives you more Shooting Damage would for sure be pay to win!


(attack) #16

and than nobody wants to play a certain class and the hate and trashtalk begins someone goes afk… and it goes his his way.
btw whats when smbdy is leaving?
for me the fact i hate most of mobas are the players.
rly nearly any game the last pick picks a 2nd adc because he dont want sup.
there is so much hate in moba games
i dont want that
i want to chill when playing a shooter not read the full time coments of a player which
would have done so much better than the guy who picked before him


(Protekt1) #17

I don’t like MOBAs because they take long to ramp up and the matches overall are too long. The only one I liked is smite and only enough to play it but I haven’t played it in like 6 months to a year. That one tends to ramp up much faster and all the shots are skill shots.

It is also a little disappointing when someone picks the god you’re good at. Later on when you’re good at multiple gods it is okay, but for new players it can be such a bummer cause you’re locked in 30-45 minutes with a class you don’t really want to play or even know how to. And sometimes matches can be determined by counters so I mean, it’s more about meta sometimes than actual skill and knowledge and team strategy.


(BAMFana) #18

[QUOTE=stealth6;470034]
I don’t agree with stats etc, if I want to play a MOBA then I’ll play a MOBA. Mobas are too confusing for me that’s why I play FPS :smiley: if you add all these features and I have to be constantly number juggling to figure out if I have enough DPS etc… KISS

I like the idea of drafting, but at the same time I’d really like to see a way to just play casually too. Not have to worry about screwing up my precious stats (leaderboards)
I know there aren’t leaderboards per se etc in Dota, but every match feels like you have to play properly, competitively, Which definitely creates a different atmosphere.

Nice post, but quite a lot to read and if this is only a fragment of what you’re working on… :eek:[/QUOTE]
KISS is good, but depth is also good. The suggestions outlined in the OP are quite simple, but they still allow for significantly more gameplay depth than Extraction currently offers.

Having 5v5 matchmaking with some variation of drafting as the standard game mode doesn’t preclude the game from also having a traditional fps game mode where you pick a server to join and leave the game whenever you feel like it. Whether or not it’s beneficial to have both is another matter. Dota 2 seems to do very well with 5v5 matchmaking only, and it may be that that is the best way to ensure that all players receive a consistent experience from playing the game.

Thanks for the encouragement. The full post, which I’ll hopefully finish in a matter of weeks, currently looks like it will be around 10 times the amount of words as this, covering a wide range of topics. Brevity is great, but sometimes it takes a lot of words to explain something properly.

[QUOTE=k0k0nat;470068]All this works on Dota2, because the game is completely different.

When I cant kill a guy because he has +Health or +Abilitiepower or (Speed)Buffs on him, I will instant ragequit.

The last games trying to come with MMO/MOBA features AND Shooters fell awful. In my opinion, Firefall for example sucks ass.[/QUOTE]
I don’t see how your example is any different from dying in Extraction because, for example, the player you’re fighting against got a medpack or because somebody drops an air strike on you. The way the stats and abilities work should never make it impossible for a non-leveled player to kill a leveled player – that would be horrible design.

The abilities in Extraction now are a good example, as I think they are far too powerful. Even in Dota 2, there is no ability that will instantly kill another hero by itself, yet the current default air strike can kill an entire team of players in a single use. If the per-game progression system I outlined in the OP was used, it would instead be possible to make abilities comparatively weak when they are unleveled and powerful if the player spends his points leveling them. A level 0 air strike would, for example, not do enough damage to kill another merc in a single hit, but instead do 50 damage over a small AOE, whereas a max level air strike would do enough damage to kill any merc caught in its much larger AOE. If more abilities are added, or something else to spend experience points on, it would also add meaningful tactical choices and consequences when the player has to choose what to spend his experience points on. This adds more depth to the game, and more depth is good!

FireFall is an example of how not to design an fps game with MOBA elements, particularly with regards to preserving quality of gunplay. That doesn’t mean it isn’t possible, or that it isn’t worth doing, it just means that it needs to be done in a different way than FireFall tried, and the current mechanics of Extraction combined with the suggestions outlined in the OP is just that.

One of the great things is that since this isn’t a MOBA, since we don’t have creeps, since we’re not farming, since we don’t have lanes and we don’t have towers, the gameplay can be designed very differently from how, for example, it works in Dota 2. It should be perfectly possible to combine the concepts I outlined in the OP with shorter rounds.