Merc idea: Turner


(Dysfnal) #1

Turner
Class: Engineer
Health: 100
Speed: 430
Nationality: Middle Eastern

Ability 1: Objective Specialist

Ability 2: Backdoor
Turns enemy deployables within a short radius friendly or disables them until the player who placed the original places a new one.
10 second recharge, +0 seconds for each ammo station turned; +1 second for each proximity mine turned, heartbeat sensor turned, snitch device turned; +2 seconds for each health station turned; +3 seconds for each automated turret turned; +1 second for each sticky bomb disabled; +4 seconds for each deployable cover disabled.
1 second deploy time.

Weapons

Primaries
Ü-Z (default) (High fire rate. High damage
Low accuracy. Low range. High recoil. Did I say high? I mean horrendous)
Crotzni
KEK-10

Secondaries
Caulden (default)
M9
Selbstadt

Melee
Kukri (default)
Cricket Bat
Beckhill Combat Knife

Augments
Bomb Squad
Black Hat (Increased hacking radius)
Guardian Angel
Drilled
Double Time
Looter
Quickdraw
Quickslash
Chopper
Spares
Short fused (10 second reduction on C4 times)
Overclock (Enhances the abilities of turned equipment 10% increase to detection radius 11% increase to deployables health 15% faster equipment reaction time 10% increase to health regen speed given by healing abilities 7.5% increase to the radius of healing abilities 50% faster ammo replenishment for friendlies by ammo stations)
Quick Eye
Untrackable
Unshakeable

Constructive criticism please, you don’t need to tell me I’m wrong, just tell me why


(Brycko) #2

Had an epiphany this morning, about a REALLY similar merc. (Middle Eastern, Hacker themed, engineer) Glad somebody’s already beaten me to the punch.

First question: guy or gal? Assuming its a guy, but with DB’s diversity and all…

The name’s kinda generic. DB’s mercs are all named after their ability’s or dominating feature. (Aimee: Sniper, Proxy: Proximity Mines, RedEye: IR goggles.) I can see where the name originated (Turner: literally turns deployables against the enemy team), but its also kinda dull. I was thinking more along the lines of WatchDog (i’m sure people will get the reference) or maybe even Virus.

Love the UZ idea, but with the high recoil and low accuracy it’ll be hard to use at the same distance as some of the other machine guns, ie the Crotzni and the KEK. But then if the accuracy is increased and recoil decreased it would be super OP.

Solution: change the merc’s stats itself. Currently he (or she) is like a pseudo Bushwhacker, which is a) out of balance with the weak first ability, and b) doesn’t work well at close range with the UZ. It’ll be hard to deploy the hacking-thing into a room if the merc’s too slow. (Thinking about how Fletcher’s stickys are deployed) Alternatively, if the merc’s sprint speed could be raised (450 sprint); running into a room, wildly firing the UZ for cover, throwing the hacking-thing down and running out of the room before the UZ runs out of ammo wouldn’t be a problem (and really cool). That way, the UZ is put at close range (where it will absolutely SHREAD the enemy).

Alternatively he/she could parkour around the side of the map, flanking the enemy, taking out the sniper and quietly throwing down the hacking-thing to disable a little camping base, then sneaking in to take them from behind.

Now onto the ability: It’s great. Contrary to Thunder’s concussion grenades, which, whilst disabling the enemy deployables, makes it very evident that you’re being attacked, Turner’s hacking-thing (really needs a name) could be used covertly, which works well with the hacking theme. Maybe give it an activation time once thrown (7s): Otherwise, might be OP. Would give the enemy a chance to destroy it before it activates.

Also thinking about a secondary ability: Something simple like the ability to repair or improve (range, health, speed) team deployables, (like TF2’s engineer/a manual version of the overclock augment) or an emp martyrdom.

Would swap out the Crotzni with the SMG-9: Good range, good fire rate, good hip fire. Highly underrated.

Kukri is the perfect melee weapon. Maybe we can also finally find a place for those unreleased throwing knives.

Wondering if Turner deserves better than a pistol as a secondary, considering his/her weaker primaries. Duel pistols? Maybe just stick with the really good pistol (which the Caulden is). Hmmmm…

Augments look good, especially Overclock. Would maybe increase deployable range?

Ability needs a better name, only because it’s a deployable. Hacking Bomb? Virus transmitter?
Access point? Backdoor?

I really hope this Merc Idea goes through. After Turtle is FINALLY released, and maybe Javeline, I really would want to see Turner as the next merc.


(Dysfnal) #3

@Brycko Thanks man! i really appreciate the support as well as the recommendations, he’d be male, because i personally don’t think the name quite fits a female merc, and i originally thought it to be more like pheonix’s healing pulse activation wise, though a grenade/deployable with a short delay (7 seconds is a bit long IMO) sounds better yet also more balanced (easier to counter)… maybe a little bit more speed but keep the same health pool? I don’t want a merc with such a frontline ability to be too squishy, aura for example, is lackluster in comp matches. I’d love to see one of my merc ideas in DB, this just happened to be my favorite, also, changed speed to 430, i miscalculated, so disregard what i said about increasing speed, already done :slight_smile:

maybe it would be good to have him toss a beacon device, the have a short animation like the c4 arming (with the cell phone) meanwhile i’ll try to think of a better name for the ability, though backdoor is pretty damn good

settled on backdoor, love the sound of that, and it fits the ability well, and Turner is an actual name, which is why I think it appeals well


(Naonna) #4

so… i see rhino’s minigun as a primary with no spin up. Why?

To quote my previous posts:
Turning enemy deployables against themselves de-values characters such as proxy, bushwacker, aura, and even the ammo givers. - Not something we want to see when a merc goes onto free rotation: resulting in a large portion of merc abilities rendered useless.


(Brycko) #5

@Naonna I can see where the concern is coming from, but after a bit of thinking I found a couple of ways to make it more difficult for noobs (or anyone) to just pick up and wreck with Turner, similar to the learning curve with Sparks or even Aimee with the PDP.

The idea behind the Backdoor ability isn’t to render a mercs ability useless, it’s more to disband or weaken enemy defenses so that you don’t just get people camping in one spot for too long, to ‘shake up’ defenses the same way Thunder or Nader does (just more effectively). It would actually help mercs like Sawbones, Sparks and Arty as their medpacks/ammo packs can’t be ‘turned’ by the Backdoor ability, making them more useful against Turner.

It also wouldn’t completely devalue deployable-using players, as they can just redeploy their depolyables somewhere else, and their ‘turned’ deployable will disappear. In addition, after they’re turned, no-one else can pick up and ‘steal’ the deployable, but since the deployable now belongs to the enemy team, it can easily be destroyed to prevent the enemy team from using it.

The team could prioritize killing Turner before the other mercs to prevent a backdoor from being deployed, and considering Turner’s low health, it wouldnt be difficult to hunt him down with an assault or another objective specialist. On top of that, the Backdoor ability could have a longer base cool down. Besides, his ability cooldown depend on how effectively the ability was used.

Finally, if the defending team also has a Turner, he could use HIS Backdoor to counter the attacking teams backdoor.

To sum it up, Backdoor can be defended against(nerfed) in many ways:

  1. Redeploy the deployable outside the range of the Backdoor
  2. Destroy the turned deployable
  3. Prioritize killing Turner (low health)
  4. Use mercs that don’t use deployables
  5. Use another Turner to counter
  6. Longer base cooldown
  7. Ability takes time to activate, gives chance to destroy before it activates
  8. Backdoor can be destroyed (because it’s a deployable)
  9. Backdoor has a limited duration (30-40s)

As you can see, there are actually too many different ways the Backdoor ability can be countered. Even if #1 doesn’t actually work ( I think multiple deployables can be placed, but they’re usually destroyed or have a long Cooldown), Turner’s Backdoor is not actually as overpowered and is kinda weak if not used effectively. Personally, I wouldn’t put all of the 9 countermeasures into the game. It was why I originally thought a second ability wouldn’t be a bad thought, though he is an objective specialist…

In his defense, no matter the countermeasures, it still shakes up the defense. Mercs with deployables still have to figure out of they should wait it out, or redeploy their deployables somewhere outside the range of the Backdoor, which could displace critically needed support I.e a health station. Should I destroy my deployables? What if another Turner comes by and Counters? Should I wait? Can we find the Backdoor, or kill the enemy Turner?

This’ll also encourage teamwork. Mercs like Sawbonez, Sparks, Arty and Skyhammer suddenly play an important role of supporting their team, and aren’t battling for XP against deployable users. Assault mercs will have to defend their teams whilst they hunt down the Backdoor or the enemy Turner. For the attacking team, the rewards are greater: A push now means a free ammo station, health station, heartbeat sensor and/or turret. The enemy is low on health, ammo! Perfect time for a push!

This is why Turner gets his name: Use him effectively and he can turn the tide of the battle in his favor, but its ultimately up to his team to take the opportunity.

As for the UZ, think more like a light version of Rhinos minigun but with greater recoil than the Crotzni and the spread/distance of the Remburg. And a 40-50 round magazine that runs dry in less than 10 seconds, with the reload of the Crotzni. Correct me if I’m wrong @Dysfnal

Ow. my fingers hurt. all typed on a phone. Thanks @Naonna for futhuring Turner’s development!

@Dysfnal This Merc is shaping up better than thought! If only we had some concept art.

Reflecting on the above mini-essay, I’ve thought of an improvement for the Backdoor; A very distinct sound or effect or some sort of command chatter from Turner informing the team that the Backdoor had been activated AND how many deployables it has turned, similar to how one knows when Vassili’s heartbeat sensor has spotted an enemy. Only a heads up for the team members, not for the enemy team.


(Dysfnal) #6

@Brycko That’s basically the üz, it would not do the same damage of the minigun, it would have reload time, and about hochfir mag size, maybe less, but with much less accuracy to keep it balanced, though the damage would be high in comparison to many other guns, it would be a very inaccurate gun with a lot of recoil

The backdoor would be up for 4-5 seconds, and relatively obvious while it’s up, and Turner would be unable to shoot for 1 second after placing it. I would say that it’s fairly balanced, I also intentionally left parts ambiguous, such as the radius, I only said short. The actual radius would be for the devs to manage and balance

@Naonna This really wouldn’t devalue the other deployable mercs, someone isn’t likely to use the backdoor if they don’t know the mine is there, and any other mercenary, in the case that they do know of its presence, will destroy it if possible. One sticky bomb can take out a health station, and also will take a sentry down to 20 health, making it easier to destroy, all in a much much shorter time. All Turner would do is prevent teams from relying on deployable mercs too much. Turner would HARDLY devalue ammo station mercs, as it would only enable collision with that team, that’s all it would do.

On these pages, please ask questions like “what would the dps be like?” instead of immediately assuming it’s on par with rhino’s minigun, because it wouldn’t be, that would be incredibly unbalanced, and I am well aware of this


(Brain_of_Britain) #7

This is a really good idea and it’s shaping up nicely, in the way of looks could.the backdoor look like a small router or maybe a little like the camera from rainbow six siege, just an idea though, some concept art would be nice too in order to make this idea really complete. Hope this helps :smiley:


(yesser) #8

can the deployable been taken by their owner when turned ?


(Brycko) #9

@agileBeetle Probably not, because then the owner could just pick up the deployables and place them down outside the range of the backdoor, and what would the point of trying to Turn deployables if the deployables are just moved out of the area? It only takes a press of a button to move a deployable, which means everyone just picks up their deployables and leaves. Think of an Aura just picking up her health station and moving to the other side of a room, then placing it right back down again.

I think the idea is that any ‘turned’ deployables sort of ‘lose’ ownership, so although they now work for the opposite team, no-one (from either team) can (re)claim them; they can only be destroyed by traditional methods (grenades, guns, knives etc…) or when the previous owner places down a new one somewhere else.

Would probably be the case if Backdoor had a big range, but we don’t really know what the range would be like, that’s up to the dev’s to decide.

Short answer is no, it would defeat part of the purpose of Turner. @Dysfnal need verification that this is actually the case.


(Dysfnal) #10

@Brycko you are correct in that
though my idea for the backdoor would be a deployable that destroys itself (much like the spotting deployables) after it turns enemy deployables, if it’s destroyed before this happens, then they are not turned. A straight up deployable would be a little overpowered in my opinion, my fault for not making that entirely clear


(Dysfnal) #11

Turner would also pull out a phone for about a second, (like he’s initiating the hack) and if he’s killed in this time the backdoor would do nothing and destroy itself. After he’s initiated it, it would take three of four seconds and would probably make sound, or be easily seen while this is happening.


(Naonna) #12

So how is a team expected to fight back, if they’re relying on that aura station under fire? Turning an opponent deployable against will only discourage team play for mercs such as Aura and Sawbonez (If we include health packs as deployables.)

The idea of a lone merc breaking an entire cluster hold on the first point of Underground is worrying: especially if multiple copies of this merc? - People in pubs struggle to destroy heartbeat sensors.

If this ability works through walls in an AOE, then there’s very little to stop its success. At least with Aimee’s third eye cam, it has to be line-of sight. - If this ability emanates from the player and still is line-of sight, they can just peek a corner to achieve the same effect, unless someone’s already expecting it.

(On an unrelated note, the short-fused ‘perk’ seems worrying. C4 is designed to be the same across all characters once planted: even if engineers plants it slightly faster.)


(Brycko) #13

@Naonna health packs aren’t (turnable) deployables. Neither are ammo packs. The backdoor ability is supposed to encourage team play by valuing players with health packs and ammo packs more. That being said, Skyhammer noobs that forget they have ammo packs may be an issue.

The line of sight thing is an interesting point, and could actually solve range balancing issues. It could make it more obvious that a backdoor is being deployed if you have to throw it into the same room as the mercs, which means defending against it may be better. But paired with the activation time the backdoor could also be impossible to deploy successfully.

Finally the issue of discouraging team play with deployables is active, but I think it’s more likely that people will get pissed and try to hunt down Turner. As for multiple Turners (which probably won’t happen for a 50,000 credit Merc, though rotations may cause an issue), you just fight back as another Turner. Multiple Turners could be annoying, but at least they’re (designed to be) easy to kill. Besides, If you don’t know how to play Turner, and how to overcome his weaknesses, he could be tough and unenjoyable to play (think similar to Fletcher or Sparks learning curve). Noobs can’t just walk into a room, start firing and deploy a backdoor without either dying or having their backdoor destroyed instantly (Proxy mines could be a really effective counter for ignorant players ). That learning curve will make him less desirable in rotations.

@Dysfnal When I was thinking of the Backdoor as a persistent deployable, I was thinking that once it was destroyed by the enemy team, the turned deployables would turn back to normal. That might be where the overpowered mixup comes from. Still, it may be super easy for someone to find and destroy the backdoor, making it effective for only a short period of time and making the ability more of an EMP than anything else. Hmmm…


(Naonna) #14

With Phantom getting a passive EMP ability under his armor, this merc may be less useful than initially planned.


(Dysfnal) #15

@Naonna I realize this now, it’s a damn shame, I’d have loved to see Turner in game


(inscrutableShow) #16

How would you turn deployable cover? It’s just a thing sitting there.


(Brycko) #17

You don’t really need to. You can use Turtle’s shield from both sides, but Turning it will just make it unable to be moved.


(Dysfnal) #18

@inscrutableShow @Brycko

I did touch turtle’s shield, it would simply disable it, causing it to collapse in on itself. It would probably be reclaimable, as it isn’t technically on one side or the other, simply collapsed and therefore useless

Same thing goes for sticky bombs


(bontsa) #19

I do like this idea a lot, wouldnt mind playtesting it at some point as it seems one of the most well-thought engineer ideas around. I dont think it’s useless with Phanty’s EMP, as this does slightly different effect. Also Phantom on opposing team as Turner would in this case be fantastic counter too -> EMP now hacked, hostile deployables so they dont assist enemy in their push. Not to mention if EMP works against Backdoor itself, depending how that functions ofc.

I dont see how any kind of pack deployables would be an issue @Naonna as you do know they are “neutral” the moment they exit players hands right? ^^ Funtimes making enemy Sawboner panic and smack me a healthy pack instead of bullet in my face.


(SweetGenocide) #20

Intesting, i love the U-Z idea and since we dont have a Watch Dogs inspired Merc we need one XD