And removing it also fails to achieve that goal.
We’ve had nauseatingly long discussions on the subject of self-heal before, I’m not going to put my case for retaining it yet again. I want to discuss how we incentivise the Medic to revive. If no-one’s prepared to discuss that point I’m done with this thread.
I’m already done on that thread and on a lot more … Medic is broken that’s all …
[QUOTE=INF3RN0;455054]So then you would be cool with a medic with a weak weapon and self packing? I’ve already heard you complain that it shouldn’t have a weaker gun in game… Maybe you never heard of tossing down a huge pile of med packs and then turning the corner. That is one huge reason why medics were so extremely powerful because you could absorb tons of damage in a fight without consequence. Also there’s situations where your fighting multiple people and losing deserved multikills from self packing is entirely possible. The fact that it was so good in the past is what led to medics focusing less on supporting the team and instead bringing their worth as the best fraggers simply because self heal allowed them to gain base advantage. I think all the games did it poorly, where in RTCW probably did it better but via the TF2 method of class pairing.
What you and Kendle are missing here is that self heal is not a good solution to making revives and team heals happen, even if it can sometimes be used to achieve that. More often than not it won’t. It needs to be done in another way that won’t directly effect the potential for combat proficiency of the medic. I hope that makes enough sense because it should be seen as hugely problematic to anyone with a competitive mindset.[/QUOTE]
I wrote out a 4 paragraph response and then read Kendle’s post and I’m on board with him. This argument is moot because you have it locked in your brain that medics should be played a specific way. This isn’t RtCW or WET. It’s DB. The major nerf to the health packs was more than enough to even out medics. The more recent nerf was over kill and now the class is broken. Echo is a great tool but in this case it failed. Just because less people are playing medic now doesn’t mean it balanced the game or class.
Picking medic should not lock you into a peon role where you just sit back and deliver pizza boxes to your team the whole game.
Anyway, as Kendle was saying this has been hashed out before and medics not being able to self heal is not the fix.
The real problems are:
[ul]
[li]TTK vs Gib ammo ratio (I.E. If it takes a long time to kill someone the gib time should be short or vice versa.)[/li][li]Medics need to be able to survive the revive or they won’t do it. Swapping lives (in most cases both players die) with the player is not how the medic should played. Basically, medics are punished for reviving.[/li][*]Health Packs - Need to be worked on. In their current form they are too weak because of the amount of spam in DB and all the gimmick loadouts arent even completed yet. It will get worse.[/ul]
Ambushing the enemy and drawing their resources away from the main objectives is an extremely valuable contribution to the team, I certainly have no issue with flankers. Where I have an issue is when that contribution comes at the cost of not performing your basic support duties. So I while have an issue with medics and to some extent fops going off on their own, I can appreciate engies, soldiers and recons doing it while they don’t have class-specific objectives to attend to because they don’t have intrinsic support duties.
I would even say I’d like to see loadouts in these classes that support this type of solo/flanker gameplay. Perhaps a recon loadout that is not build around a sniper riffle but rather designed for infiltration and guerrilla warfare? A soldier with a lighter weapon but more ammo? I simply want the support classes to encourage a support play style and pin the more individualistic styles on the other classes.
[QUOTE=strychzilla;455101]The real problems are:
[ul]
[li]TTK vs Gib ammo ratio (I.E. If it takes a long time to kill someone the gib time should be short or vice versa.)[/li][li]Medics need to be able to survive the revive or they won’t do it. Swapping lives (in most cases both players die) with the player is not how the medic should played. Basically, medics are punished for reviving.[/li][li]Health Packs - Need to be worked on. In their current form they are too weak because of the amount of spam in DB and all the gimmick loadouts arent even completed yet. It will get worse.[/ul][/QUOTE][/li]
That’s a really vague list. Just saying. It seems like you’re not really offering an alternative and just as Inferno insinuated, want to keep the medic the go-to class for easy K/D ratios.
The medic is the main support class, it’s the only class that is completely unable to perform his main task while playing the lone-wolf.
If you want to play solo then that’s fine. There should be characters that should cater to that style of play. Those characters just should not be medics.
[QUOTE=tokamak;455129]That’s a really vague list. Just saying. It seems like you’re not really offering an alternative and just as Inferno insinuated, want to keep the medic the go-to class for easy K/D ratios.
The medic is the main support class, it’s the only class that is completely unable to perform his main task while playing the lone-wolf.
If you want to play solo then that’s fine. There should be characters that should cater to that style of play. Those characters just should not be medics.[/QUOTE]
I play medic “lone-wolf” plenty and still circle around to do revives and drop packs. Again, a medic doesn’t need to be sitting in the middle of 5 people to be an effective medic. That’s just how you guys want them to be played. I would hope that they never get to that state as it will be dull and boring.
[QUOTE=Kendle;455087]And removing it also fails to achieve that goal.
We’ve had nauseatingly long discussions on the subject of self-heal before, I’m not going to put my case for retaining it yet again. I want to discuss how we incentivise the Medic to revive. If no-one’s prepared to discuss that point I’m done with this thread.[/QUOTE]
Removing it prevents abuse and imbalance in combat effectiveness. Buffing other aspects of the medic makes up for the fact. Is that so hard to understand??? Self heal as a means of making the medic role is non-sense when it is also expected that the medic should be equally effective when running head on into another class. Right now you can still self heal even though it is less effective than before and you can heal up immediately between frags. How is it not obvious that self heal is such an important variable in the combat role of the medic???
If people want a play style where they don’t have to be punished for having self packing then get rid of it and buff the weapon, buff the revive reward, buff the spawn shield, etc. How would that not be a less problematic solution??? If you want to self heal then please accept the fact your weapon cannot be as strong as other classes that don’t self heal. The medic can exist in variable play styles, but the point is that they must be balanced. So stop thinking that self heal is the only means of making medic’s effective as a class because no other class has self heal… if this isn’t RTCW or ET or ETQW then why can’t people just move on and accept something new and more realistic. People don’t like soldier doing the most base damage on one hand, yet medic’s should do equal damage to other classes and be able to heal themselves?? It makes no sense.
[QUOTE=INF3RN0;455138]Removing it prevents abuse and imbalance in combat effectiveness. Buffing other aspects of the medic makes up for the fact. Is that so hard to understand??? Self heal as a means of making the medic role is non-sense when it is also expected that the medic should be equally effective when running head on into another class. Right now you can still self heal even though it is less effective than before and you can heal up immediately between frags. How is it not obvious that self heal is such an important variable in the combat role of the medic???
If people want a play style where they don’t have to be punished for having self packing then get rid of it and buff the weapon, buff the revive reward, buff the spawn shield, etc. How would that not be a less problematic solution??? If you want to self heal then please accept the fact your weapon cannot be as strong as other classes that don’t self heal. The medic can exist in variable play styles, but the point is that they must be balanced. So stop thinking that self heal is the only means of making medic’s effective as a class because no other class has self heal… if this isn’t RTCW or ET or ETQW then why can’t people just move on and accept something new and more realistic. People don’t like soldier doing the most base damage on one hand, yet medic’s should do equal damage to other classes and be able to heal themselves?? It makes no sense.[/QUOTE]
I find it less realistic that a medic can’t heal himself tbh. Sort of like a mechanic that can’t fix his own car or a plumber that can’t fix his own sink. It all falls into that category for me.
Screw realism. Screw it.
Putting it differently:
Being a lone-wolf medic right now is the only ‘fun’ role in the whole game right now. Everything else doesn’t have the same ego-tripping potential is therefore inferior.
So yes, I completely own up to the fact that sitting in the middle of five team mates and keeping them up is the way I want the medic to be played. Does it take the ego-tripping out of the medic? Perhaps, but I think the satisfaction will be gained in grateful team-mates. But that’s not even the point. The point is that you get longer lasting battles, more people killing more people dying and more thinking about how to break these tense shoot-outs. That’s what I’m after, the medic is the keystone to that and currently he’s not fulfilling that role.
You’re afraid that the best solo-class is being taken from you. You have all rights to be afraid of that because that class isn’t supposed to be the best solo-class in the first place. However, once we start recognising this we can look at what other classes can be suited better for a solo-play. Just keep in mind that no class should be self-sufficient. Ever. If you want to play a game where you’re self-sufficient then please go play Quake. It’s a fun game and you’ll be better rewarded on your own merits in an equal settings rather than simply hogging a favoured position that is best at making you feel superior to the rest.
Nope, I understand it perfectly, I’ve never NOT understood it perfectly.
I do accept that, and again have never NOT accepted that. You’re confusing me with Strych here, I DON’T expect to win 1-v-1’s as a Medic, especially not against Soldiers.
Agreed, and for the third time I’m not, and never have, asked for that.
Three things :-
I’ve argued why Medic must retain the ability to self-heal, at length, in other threads. Some people seem to think you get to win the argument by simply being the last to speak on the subject. I will not play that game anymore, I’m only interested in debating how we incentivise Medics to revive.
While I agree with a lot of what Strych says I’m not him, I was a “proper” RTCW support Medic, not an ET combat Medic, and self-heal is and was crucial to that role. I want a support Medic in DB that can revive and heal himself and others and am perfectly happy to sacrifice combat efficiency to achieve that.
tokamak’s on the ignore list again, I will no longer debate DB with someone who hardly if ever plays it.
Agreed. In RTCW and ET I was a fulltime support medic - the type of medic Tokomak wants. Always with the team, constantly reviving and giving out health. Anyone who thinks you can do that effectively without the ability to heal yourself up quickly hasn’t played medic beyond the most basic level (and certainly not in anything organised). Not only is is necessary to do the job properly, it’s also one of the things that makes the class so interesting to play. Sometimes the best way to support the team is to keep yourself alive, other times you sacrifice yourself.
I’m not saying that medics shouldn’t be able to heal themselves entirely. I’m saying they shouldn’t be able to directly heal themselves. The amount of self-healing should be directly tied to the amount of healing they do. IE they snatch say, 30% of each heal they perform and 50% of each revive they perform. And yes that can be instant as well.
This also means that they need to keep healing others and the really skilled players will start using healing their team as a means to become really scary in combat.
[QUOTE=Kendle;455149]Nope, I understand it perfectly, I’ve never NOT understood it perfectly.
I do accept that, and again have never NOT accepted that. You’re confusing me with Strych here, I DON’T expect to win 1-v-1’s as a Medic, especially not against Soldiers.
Agreed, and for the third time I’m not, and never have, asked for that.
Three things :-
I’ve argued why Medic must retain the ability to self-heal, at length, in other threads. Some people seem to think you get to win the argument by simply being the last to speak on the subject. I will not play that game anymore, I’m only interested in debating how we incentivise Medics to revive.
While I agree with a lot of what Strych says I’m not him, I was a “proper” RTCW support Medic, not an ET combat Medic, and self-heal is and was crucial to that role. I want a support Medic in DB that can revive and heal himself and others and am perfectly happy to sacrifice combat efficiency to achieve that.
tokamak’s on the ignore list again, I will no longer debate DB with someone who hardly if ever plays it.[/QUOTE]
So would you be satisfied with 3 variances of medic loadouts that function as a heavy support pack based, mid-range, and combat medic? All would be equally combat efficient, but of course the more you sway towards one area the more dependent you are on your tool or weapon to win 1v1s. That is what I want to see. Unfortunately when people start quoting you and then adding to it, things become quite confusing. I am all about offering a balanced pallet for each play style, but I do not want to see the best of everything in one place like in the past. If you agree with that then I think we got things sorted.
Yes, but I’d argue the RTCW Medic was not the best of everything in one place, even if the ET Medic was. The RTCW Medic had hardly any ammo, whereas the Lt had an endless supply and the Engie had 8 (yes 8!) grenades. At the end of the day packs don’t kill people, guns (and the bullets they fire) kill people. You stop rambo’ing by nerfing the gun and / or reducing the bullet count, like RTCW did, not by nerfing the self-heal. Self-heal MUST remain in any Medic loadout IMO.
As long as there’s direct self-heal the medic will remain the class for k/d statpadders.
can’t remember, could RTCW medic pickup enemy guns/bullets or was that what made ET combat medics ?
No, and that’s the difference. He could pick up his own team’s dropped weapon but not the guy he just killed. That’s why I campaigned to have ammo drop removed from DB.
and as soon as you remove it the medic will remain an unplayed class. This game, like RtCW, is all about organized chaos. Not being able to heal yourself in the chaos makes you worthless and dead. Especially with how terrible reviving is. I killed Raste like 4X in a row after a revive as soon as he got picked up. He didn’t even get to move 1 step.