Massive nerf to Caulden, Desert Eagle, Simeon, and S+W

(JJMAJR) #1

All of these weapons have gotten a major buff in burst damage. This alone is quite an amazing thing, but unfortunately most sidearms have taken a major loss in DPS for that little exchange.

The Caulden used to have 114 DPS, and that got changed to 109. All it gained was an additional 2 maximum burst damage. Pathetic. (Even though I do have to take into the account that the .40 was buffed and therefore the Caulden needed some time out of the spotlight, it feels like a cheap way to get these buffs expressed.)

Meanwhile, the Simeon remains to be easily the worst heavy pistol, losing 1/4 of its RoF in exchange for having 60 maximum burst damage, while the S+W now has 68.

The DE now only has 111 DPS, compared to what used to be 120. The Blishlock, the only weapon it could be compared to, had the same DPS, but a much larger clip, and the fact that it’s not treated as a really powerful gun in the first place. Although, there’s the fact that the DE now has the burst damage of the revolvers in the past. With one less bullet per second.

Meanwhile, I doubt that SD has fixed the weak nature of the MP9. It has too much spread, too little range, and even if it is the highest DPS machine pistol in the game, it’s impossible to get that DPS to be expressed in gameplay.
OH WAIT, THERE’S MORE!
The MP9 was nerfed to make these weaknesses exacerbated even more! The wonders of life!

Well, time to see if these changes actually did something good. I miss my 120-DPS pistol. But hey, we have an (incredibly asinine) Aimee nerf. That’s great any time of the week.

Wait, I though Aimee used only heavy pistols and the Caulden for a second. Silly me.

(watsyurdeal) #2

I think you need to consider the damage dealt on headshots, and how much of a game changer it can be.

I haven’t used the new pistols yet, but they were never meant to be on par with primaries in the first place.

(JJMAJR) #3

I already considered it.

(Supersneaky) #4

Well i can see it being a nerf to the smaller pistols, but a massive buff to the heavy esp S&W, taking time to place headshots now will be hugely rewarding.

(watsyurdeal) #5

I already considered it.[/quote]

I don’t think you have, let’s look at this stuff real quick

DE. 50
Increased damage to 26 (from 20)
Reduced rate of fire to 257 RPM (from 360 RPM)

Caulden
Increased damage to 20 (from 19)
Reduced rate of fire to 327 RPM (from 360 RPM)

Simeon .357
Increased damage to 30 (from 25)
Reduced rate of fire to 225 RPM (from 300 RPM)

Smjüth & Whetsman .40
Increased damage to 34 (from 27)
Reduced rate of fire to 200 RPM (from 300 RPM)
Increased recoil by ~10%

Selbstadt .40
Increased damage to 17 (from 15)
Reduced rate of fire to 400 RPM (from 450 RPM)
Increased recoil by ~10%

So, the DE 50 deals 52 damage on headshot, the caulden deals 40, Siemon deals 60, Smjuth deals 68, and sebstadt deals 34.

So it takes most of the pistols 3 headshots to kill, and the handcannons about 2, that is a huge buff. The DPS may be lower yes, but the fact that they can now kill in 2 well place headshots is a major game changer imo.

(ProfPlump) #6

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;193372”]I think you need to consider the damage dealt on headshots, and how much of a game changer it can be.

I haven’t used the new pistols yet, but they were never meant to be on par with primaries in the first place.[/quote]

Actually, the devs literally said that they wanted the pistols to be more viable in comparison to the machine pistols. This has had the opposite effect - they now have lower DPS, and while this CAN be good for the revolvers (since you had to shoot slowly before anyway or their accuracy would go to shit) it’s been TERRIBLE for the DE.50.

(ProfPlump) #7

I already considered it.[/quote]

I don’t think you have, let’s look at this stuff real quick

DE. 50
Increased damage to 26 (from 20)
Reduced rate of fire to 257 RPM (from 360 RPM)

Caulden
Increased damage to 20 (from 19)
Reduced rate of fire to 327 RPM (from 360 RPM)

Simeon .357
Increased damage to 30 (from 25)
Reduced rate of fire to 225 RPM (from 300 RPM)

Smjüth & Whetsman .40
Increased damage to 34 (from 27)
Reduced rate of fire to 200 RPM (from 300 RPM)
Increased recoil by ~10%

Selbstadt .40
Increased damage to 17 (from 15)
Reduced rate of fire to 400 RPM (from 450 RPM)
Increased recoil by ~10%

So, the DE 50 deals 52 damage on headshot, the caulden deals 40, Siemon deals 60, Smjuth deals 68, and sebstadt deals 34.

So it takes most of the pistols 3 headshots to kill, and the handcannons about 2, that is a huge buff. The DPS may be lower yes, but the fact that they can now kill in 2 well place headshots is a major game changer imo. [/quote]

The magnums are definitely better now and so is the Selbstadt (slightly), but the DE.50 is now trash. Their DPS is just TERRIBLE now.

People are complaining about the Caulden being bad right now but it’s EXACTLY like the pre-patch DE.50, except with an extra bullet in the chamber (although idk how its damage does over range compared to the old DE.50).

(JJMAJR) #8

I already considered it.[/quote]

I don’t think you have, let’s look at this stuff real quick

DE. 50
Increased damage to 26 (from 20)
Reduced rate of fire to 257 RPM (from 360 RPM)

Caulden
Increased damage to 20 (from 19)
Reduced rate of fire to 327 RPM (from 360 RPM)

Simeon .357
Increased damage to 30 (from 25)
Reduced rate of fire to 225 RPM (from 300 RPM)

Smjüth & Whetsman .40
Increased damage to 34 (from 27)
Reduced rate of fire to 200 RPM (from 300 RPM)
Increased recoil by ~10%

Selbstadt .40
Increased damage to 17 (from 15)
Reduced rate of fire to 400 RPM (from 450 RPM)
Increased recoil by ~10%

So, the DE 50 deals 52 damage on headshot, the caulden deals 40, Siemon deals 60, Smjuth deals 68, and sebstadt deals 34.

So it takes most of the pistols 3 headshots to kill, and the handcannons about 2, that is a huge buff. The DPS may be lower yes, but the fact that they can now kill in 2 well place headshots is a major game changer imo. [/quote]

The magnums are definitely better now and so is the Selbstadt (slightly), but the DE.50 is now trash. Their DPS is just TERRIBLE now.

People are complaining about the Caulden being bad right now but it’s EXACTLY like the pre-patch DE.50, except with an extra bullet in the chamber (although idk how its damage does over range compared to the old DE.50).[/quote]

The Caulden and DE .50 shot exactly 6 bullets per second, heck, look at the past RoF numbers. Now the Caulden shoots 5.45.
The DE .50 is now forced to shoot 4.283 bullets per second in exchange for dishing out 52-damage headshots.

And yes @Watsyurdeal , I did consider the huge damage potential of the revolvers, but how do you explain the shittiness of the Caulden now?

(watsyurdeal) #9

I already considered it.[/quote]

I don’t think you have, let’s look at this stuff real quick

DE. 50
Increased damage to 26 (from 20)
Reduced rate of fire to 257 RPM (from 360 RPM)

Caulden
Increased damage to 20 (from 19)
Reduced rate of fire to 327 RPM (from 360 RPM)

Simeon .357
Increased damage to 30 (from 25)
Reduced rate of fire to 225 RPM (from 300 RPM)

Smjüth & Whetsman .40
Increased damage to 34 (from 27)
Reduced rate of fire to 200 RPM (from 300 RPM)
Increased recoil by ~10%

Selbstadt .40
Increased damage to 17 (from 15)
Reduced rate of fire to 400 RPM (from 450 RPM)
Increased recoil by ~10%

So, the DE 50 deals 52 damage on headshot, the caulden deals 40, Siemon deals 60, Smjuth deals 68, and sebstadt deals 34.

So it takes most of the pistols 3 headshots to kill, and the handcannons about 2, that is a huge buff. The DPS may be lower yes, but the fact that they can now kill in 2 well place headshots is a major game changer imo. [/quote]

The magnums are definitely better now and so is the Selbstadt (slightly), but the DE.50 is now trash. Their DPS is just TERRIBLE now.

People are complaining about the Caulden being bad right now but it’s EXACTLY like the pre-patch DE.50, except with an extra bullet in the chamber (although idk how its damage does over range compared to the old DE.50).[/quote]

The Caulden and DE .50 shot exactly 6 bullets per second, heck, look at the past RoF numbers. Now the Caulden shoots 5.45.
The DE .50 is now forced to shoot 4.283 bullets per second in exchange for dishing out 52-damage headshots.

And yes @Watsyurdeal , I did consider the huge damage potential of the revolvers, but how do you explain the shittiness of the Caulden now?[/quote]

It does 40 damage per head shot, meaning it can kill a Skyhammer in 3 head shots, so with good aim, you can put them down, and on top of that it has the fastest rate of fire of any pistol with that capability.

So, what’s the problem here?

(Szakalot) #10

what OP is missing:

you almost never want to fire any of these pistols at their maximum rate of fire. While especially obvious for revolvers, both caulden and ‘deagle’ also benefit from tapfiring.

In this context the rate of fire nerf is almost not relevant, you would never reach the maximum rate of fire, except for fringe scenarios.

This is the exact same situation as Grandeur receiving hipfire accuracy in exchange for lower rate of fire - considerable buff to the gun.

Damage buff is nice, especially obvious on revolvers, they hit like mid-range shotgun shots atm!

(ProfPlump) #11

[quote=“Szakalot;193494”]what OP is missing:

you almost never want to fire any of these pistols at their maximum rate of fire. While especially obvious for revolvers, both caulden and ‘deagle’ also benefit from tapfiring.

In this context the rate of fire nerf is almost not relevant, you would never reach the maximum rate of fire, except for fringe scenarios.

This is the exact same situation as Grandeur receiving hipfire accuracy in exchange for lower rate of fire - considerable buff to the gun.

Damage buff is nice, especially obvious on revolvers, they hit like mid-range shotgun shots atm![/quote]

True, but this was never the case for the DE.50 - you COULD spam that thing at its full rate of fire and maintain accuracy (especially since, unlike the revolvers, you could spam fire while ADS without having the gun model bounce up in front of your face and block your view).

Oh, and the changes that were made to the Grandeur a while back were actually more of a nerf - since you can ADS to have high accuracy while firing at full firereate. Combine that with Quick Eye and you’re a serious threat at medium and long ranges. Meanwhile the revolvers were different because you can’t ADS spam fire with them because of their massive visual recoil which blocks the screen. (Long story short - the revolvers and the Grandeur didn’t get effected in the same way).

(ProfPlump) #12

I already considered it.[/quote]

I don’t think you have, let’s look at this stuff real quick

DE. 50
Increased damage to 26 (from 20)
Reduced rate of fire to 257 RPM (from 360 RPM)

Caulden
Increased damage to 20 (from 19)
Reduced rate of fire to 327 RPM (from 360 RPM)

Simeon .357
Increased damage to 30 (from 25)
Reduced rate of fire to 225 RPM (from 300 RPM)

Smjüth & Whetsman .40
Increased damage to 34 (from 27)
Reduced rate of fire to 200 RPM (from 300 RPM)
Increased recoil by ~10%

Selbstadt .40
Increased damage to 17 (from 15)
Reduced rate of fire to 400 RPM (from 450 RPM)
Increased recoil by ~10%

So, the DE 50 deals 52 damage on headshot, the caulden deals 40, Siemon deals 60, Smjuth deals 68, and sebstadt deals 34.

So it takes most of the pistols 3 headshots to kill, and the handcannons about 2, that is a huge buff. The DPS may be lower yes, but the fact that they can now kill in 2 well place headshots is a major game changer imo. [/quote]

The magnums are definitely better now and so is the Selbstadt (slightly), but the DE.50 is now trash. Their DPS is just TERRIBLE now.

People are complaining about the Caulden being bad right now but it’s EXACTLY like the pre-patch DE.50, except with an extra bullet in the chamber (although idk how its damage does over range compared to the old DE.50).[/quote]

The Caulden and DE .50 shot exactly 6 bullets per second, heck, look at the past RoF numbers. Now the Caulden shoots 5.45.
The DE .50 is now forced to shoot 4.283 bullets per second in exchange for dishing out 52-damage headshots.

And yes @Watsyurdeal , I did consider the huge damage potential of the revolvers, but how do you explain the shittiness of the Caulden now?[/quote]

It does 40 damage per head shot, meaning it can kill a Skyhammer in 3 head shots, so with good aim, you can put them down, and on top of that it has the fastest rate of fire of any pistol with that capability.

So, what’s the problem here?[/quote]

Yes because everyone can hit 3 headshots in a row perfectly on a Skyhammer…

But remember - when you’re saying that the DE.50 can kill a Skyhammer with 3 headshots - it could ALREADY do that (since its damage used to be 20 per bullet, meaning that 3 headshots meant exactly 120 damage). Sure, now it can kill the skyhammer with 2 headshots and one body shot (coming to 130 total damage) so this extra damage only helps out in medium range (where you have time to reload your primary anyway, so you should be using that instead, unless you have a shotgun).

But the problem is a simple one - DPS. It used to have 120 DPS, meaning that if you had good aim and you fired that small magazine well you could deal some serious damage with spam fire (unlike the revolvers which, in my opinion, WERE more situational and were terrible for killing anyone except mercs who were on low HP). However, now the DPS is down to 111 AND the firerate has been lowered.

The same goes for the Caulden, which has had a small buff to its damage but a much larger nerf to its firerate (so its DPS also got lowered).

Now I’m not saying that the pistols should be as strong as primaries, but I WILL say that they need to be balanced among themselves. Before the patch, the M9 was the king, with the Selbstadt, DE.50 and S&W coming in behind, and the Caulden and Simeon coming in at last place. We were HOPING that Splash Damage would balance it properly, but now we have the SAME situation - M9 is still the king (since it had no changes) alongside the new S&W, the Simeon and Selbstadt coming in behind, and the Caulden and DE.50 coming in last place.

Basically all that this patch has done is ‘shuffled’ the imbalanced weapons around, rather than actually balancing those weapons so that they are ALL viable. Not only that, but the M9 is still the weapon of choice (as it recieved no changes whatsoever while all the other weapons got varying DPS nerfs).

(ProfPlump) #13

It wasn’t even a nerf to the smaller pistols though - the Selbstadt’s DPS has remained almost exactly the same despite its changes, and the M9 hasn’t been altered at all. All that this patch has done is make the revolvers more viable and make the DE.50 and Caulden NOT viable.

(Szakalot) #14

im not convinced, but i havent had a chance to try i will let you know next week. just a few points:

  • no idea where/when you think you can safely go ADS with a pistol, that sounds like a very rare scenario
  • hipfire deagle gets crap accuracy pretty quickly, spamming being effective only for a panic pointblank
  • damage buff also increased maximum damage before you have to reload
  • frontloaded damage is a beast in this game, especially for secondaries which you usually whipout when players are heavily damaged anyways. already a good player with s&w can be scary when switching to the revolver, as you often know a single headshot will put you down

as for grandeur: yes ADS got a slight nerf, but the hipfire buff is huge, grandeur is my most played weapon and i definitely see the before and after

(Apofenas) #15

You are very mistaken thinking such small DPS reduction is a nerf. There is one thing that DPS calculation doesn’t take into account - reload time.

If you take M9, you can shoot 7.5 rounds per second (theoreticly). So you need 2 seconds to shoot all 15 rounds and 1.3 sec to reload. Its DPS number with reload is 68.

Now think about magnums, for example Simeon. It could shoot 5 rounds a second so it needed 1.2 sec to empty the mag and than reload for 1.9 seconds. So its dps with reload was 48.4. I’m not even talking that any of those 6 bullets will barelly hit anything.

With new stats that number increaces and now you can hit targets way better.

I only dislike the Caulden change, which makes it worse than pre-buff DE.50 (stat wise). I assume thats because Caulden can hit targets properly. But I’d still prefer old Caulden over new.

(nokiII) #16

New caulden, simeon and s&w feel really great, haven’t tried the deagle and selbstadt yet.

(Orivar) #17

I like my Caulden when using Aimee, it is really nice in long ranges and in close ranges too :smiley:

(LifeupOmega) #18

Sorry but being able to 2 shot snipers with the S&W is beautiful and no one can take that from me.

(hoyes) #19

I have no idea what you are talking about with the caulden. It now does 20dmg which means on mercs with 80,100,120,140,200hp it requires one less shot to kill which i absolutely massive in terms of damage potential.It completely nullifies the ROF change as now its ttk is quicker for mercs with these hp values, which are most mercs.

(hoyes) #20

I do agree though that the de.50 did not need that muvh of a ROF change as now it is somewhat pitiful i terms of getting a kill. Very slow, poor dps. Should have been one of the best pistols at close range. ITS A DESERT EAGLE FFS.