Map time length and amount of objectives.

(nailzor) #21

+1 to that!

(Hundopercent) #22

Maps should be around 12 minutes long max and completable in 5 minutes if it’s rushed (forced 20 mins long = 3 hour long tournament matches.) Objectives should be around 3 - 4, and a 5th, optional, objective that gives you another route and closer spawn making it worth the time to attack/defend.

Some people may like long matches (this is why custom maps are so important,) but a lot of casuals can only play for 30 - 60 mins and then have to go. It would feel like they’re playing a lot more than what they really are if they can get 5 games in an hour vs 2.5 and have to leave the map early.

(BMXer) #23

I think shorter maps work better for pubs and comp.
20 min maps get too messy and complicated for pubs. Especially in stopwatch mode. People joining and leaving, fast/rush plants, swapping teams, etc all ruin pub stopwatch games. Keep people’s attention with shorter map times with less objectives. And if you want to play more/longer, play more rounds of pub stopwatch.
The shorter maps with less objectives are obviously more desirable for comp. Best 2 out of 3 rounds in ETQW took forever! Double full holds due to the long maps made things ridiculous at times. Better for spectators as well.

(tokamak) #24

Stopwatch is really unpopular among pub players. So to base map balance on the preferences of a small minority is not a good idea.

(INF3RN0) #25

LoL games last for over an hour, and SC2 matches well over 20minutes a lot of times. Don’t know the exact numbers on CS, but I know they last a lot longer as well.

(tokamak) #26

Race Avg Length
Z 0:11:35 (673)
P 0:11:50 (573)
T 0:12:48 (610)

Mu Avg Length
PvP 0:08:02 (90)
ZvZ 0:08:51 (173)
TvT 0:12:00 (111)
ZvP 0:12:05 (242)
ZvT 0:12:58 (258)
TvP 0:13:01 (241)

But that’s SC seconds so times 1.4 which gives about 15 minutes but of course SC has a huge standard deviation with a large bias above the mean. DB and ET works with maximum time so discussing maximum map length and average map length are two different things.

(BMXer) #27

Stopwatch with 10-12 min rounds and you are looking at 20 mins per map including warmup/wait2F3. Best 2 of 3 and that can easily be an hour. You want more? Just play best 3 of 5. Point being, shorter maps mean more options in how it can all be played out. With 20 min maps, you are forced into a long match regardless of how many rounds you play. I like more options personally.

I REALLY like the idea of being able to play more than one opponent per night. In Quake Live tournaments with 10 min maps, you can play multiple opponents per night and still be able to do best 2of3 without taking up 4+ hours. Options.

I also like the idea of smaller, shorter maps with less objectives because that mean they would be easier to make… and make well. The more objectives you pile on, the harder it is to balance and make the entire map fun. Less chances to screw up a good map IMO. I don’t think anyone would disagree that more maps that are made properly is only good.

(nailzor) #28

[QUOTE=BMXer;432404]Stopwatch with 10-12 min rounds and you are looking at 20 mins per map including warmup/wait2F3. Best 2 of 3 and that can easily be an hour. You want more? Just play best 3 of 5. Point being, shorter maps mean more options in how it can all be played out. With 20 min maps, you are forced into a long match regardless of how many rounds you play. I like more options personally.

I REALLY like the idea of being able to play more than one opponent per night. In Quake Live tournaments with 10 min maps, you can play multiple opponents per night and still be able to do best 2of3 without taking up 4+ hours. Options.

I also like the idea of smaller, shorter maps with less objectives because that mean they would be easier to make… and make well. The more objectives you pile on, the harder it is to balance and make the entire map fun. Less chances to screw up a good map IMO. I don’t think anyone would disagree that more maps that are made properly is only good.[/QUOTE]

+2 to that.

BMX doesn’t use mouse and keyboard btw, all touch screen.

(BMXer) #29

sheeeeitt… I don’t even use a monitor bro. ALL iphone for FPS!

(ImageOmega) #30

I vote for 8-10 minute maps with 3 or 4 objectives. I interpreted the times that Valdez wrote down as the time it would take to complete a map’s objectives. Not necessarily the amount of time allotted to complete a map. I would guess max time limit can be closer to 15 minutes? Correct me if I’m wrong, champ.

I think 3 or 4 objectives is for sure a maximum as there should be plenty of varied maps to offer varied objectives. I would like to see the average time it takes to complete said objectives be around 8 minutes, but not restrained by timed events so could be completed much faster.

(ImageOmega) #31

The fact that games like LoL take so long to complete a single round is one reason why I stopped playing them. I hated that if I wanted to play more than one game that was at least 2 hours.

Casual or competitive I’d like a map to be over and done with within 10 minutes. Or, at least the first half over and done with at 8-10 minutes. Then, on to the second half…

(INF3RN0) #32

[QUOTE=ImageOmega;432432]The fact that games like LoL take so long to complete a single round is one reason why I stopped playing them. I hated that if I wanted to play more than one game that was at least 2 hours.

Casual or competitive I’d like a map to be over and done with within 10 minutes. Or, at least the first half over and done with at 8-10 minutes. Then, on to the second half…[/QUOTE]

I don’t like playing for over an hour either, but I was just pointing out that this exists in plenty of games that are highly successful in all aspects. What I want is the potential to complete a map in around 5-10minutes, but a max time limit of 20. In ETQW for example you could complete the maps in nearly 5minutes, but those games of epic proportions could last up to 20minutes and it felt great. The primary focus for me is not to necessarily have a set time that forces consistency, but something that allows enough room for those drawn out epic games/matches where the time passing is overshadowed by the experience. The time to complete each objective unopposed should definitely be very quick, but it should be specified exactly what we are talking about. I strongly consider imbalance in players or poorly designed objectives to be separate from the time/obj issue and solvable through other means also.

(Ashog) #33

Voted for 20 minutes. If u wanna a quickie, go fapping or play Qlive :slight_smile:

(EnderWiggin.DA.) #34

Always preferred the 10-15 minute window for pub. To me, that’s 3-4 objectives MAX.
For comp, it should be something like 8-12 minutes imo.

(Hundopercent) #35

If you want 20+ mins games go play LoL/DoTA/Smite/HoN/DoTA2

(scre4m.) #36

10 - 15 minutes should be a quite average value.
Rushing an escort mission in 5-10 mins will be really hard, but should be possible ( when EV speed gets increased), while 20 mins maps can be quite weary sometimes,especially when one team does not manage to complete at least 1 objective.

The number of objectives can be from 2 ( with some side objectives and capturable spanws) to 5 or 6 objectives. Depends all on how much a map is balanced and how objectives work (e.g. simple flag runs versus flag run with long transmit and reset option for the objective)

(Hyperg) #37

For an action-packed competition match:

Breach A, Breach B, Steal / Destroy C;
Breach A, Conquer B, Steal / Destroy C;
Breach A, Escort B, Steal / Destroy C;

All these in around 20 mins top. Difference between Breach and Conquer would be that Breach is definitive, while Conquer can be taken back. A good escort might be fun aswell (somehow the tank/truck @ goldrush never felt like wasting time tbh, always heavy fireworks around them).

For a nabfest@pub, feel free to add objectives up to letter H or more. Eventually (harder to design though) have maps with 6-7 obj by default and cropped access for fast games.

Ofc, all of the above with side / secondary objectives which tweak the local flow of the map.

(Ashog) #38

All of the previous games of SD had 20 mins timelimit and I don;t see how this is bad. If you wanna finish the map quick, overwhelm the enemy and steamroll him - still doable in comp. EV missions are a different thing. Can accomplish Waterloo and Camden withing 10 mins or faster btw.

(Nail) #39

I liked Fuel Dump, 4 objectives to win, but 20 min is fun

(Violator) #40

20 mins, 3-4 objectives.