London Bridge Goldrush!

(prophett) #1

Might as well offer up my ideas to improve London Bridge as well.

I liked Attack’s idea here: http://forums.warchest.com/showthread.php/38888-How-could-you-improve-the-maps-without-changing-them?p=486029&viewfull=1#post486029

But then I tried coming up with ways to make it’s objectives more like Goldrush from ET - a map LB is loosely based on.

First off, move the defender’s spawn to the garage (red area) and have the doc secure area at a terminal inside the old office building just off the bridge (green area).

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The reason for this is to position the defender’s spawn relative to the objective when comparing the map to Goldrush.

I’ll admit, it is very hard to differentiate between the two maps in the following overlay (and people who have never played Goldrush will be completely lost), but with the change of spawn and the change of place where you secure the docs, this portion of the map would at least resemble Goldrush (with the exception of the docs being in a slightly different place when compared to Goldrush).

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In addition, I like the idea of having to break through the lines, grab the docs and then make a choice - chance going to shorter, more dangerous route (red line - like under bridge run in Goldrush), or go the long, safe route (green line). It’s this arrangement of objective, spawns, and giving the players/doc runner a choice that makes maps more exciting.

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(aowblacky) #2

+1 for this.

this is what the et-community changed to make goldrush playable for competition. (sw_goldrush_te)

(Glottis-3D) #3

+1 the doc-run needs to be like this. because the attacking team has to carry it around the def’s spawn. i mean the whole route of a doc run has to be subjected to ambush attacks. i think though that the delivery place needs to be further from defs spawn.

(prophett) #4

Yeah, it is a little close (especially with D having quick access to it via the stairs next to their spawn). Maybe in the old MG building on the other side of the bridge would be a better spot.

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(INF3RN0) #5

This is the layout I expected to see. Perhaps even having the transmit point a little farther back even. Some routes would obviously need to be closed off just to make things manageable, but this is ideal. I’d also love to see 2 side objs (one for O and one D) that temporarily blocked primary biased obj routes for both sides.

(tokamak) #6

I like how SD invited us to tell them how to do it more like they did it.

(Fluffy_gIMp) #7

Oh cheeky Mr. Tokamak! :slight_smile:
The reality is you will all have played the maps way more than we have by now, and as a result will have a great understanding of how it works.

(tokamak) #8

But that can’t be! I refuse to accept that these maps are arbitrarily brilliant. It’s not a coincidence.

What makes Goldrush so spectacular is that entire map has a centre, a core that stays relevant throughout the entire match. The whole escort parade swings around it and no matter what happens, who controls the centre wins. But more importantly, that centre is BLOODY awesome to fight in. There’s FOUR levels of Z-axis in there. You can go everywhere, you can lock down anything and it all depends on the stage the map is in and what the other team is doing.

That centre is ****ing chess and it didn’t came out of nowhere.

(acQu) #9

[QUOTE=tokamak;486611]But that can’t be! I refuse to accept that these maps are arbitrarily brilliant. It’s not a coincidence.

What makes Goldrush so spectacular is that entire map has a centre, a core that stays relevant throughout the entire match. The whole escort parade swings around it and no matter what happens, who controls the centre wins. But more importantly, that centre is BLOODY awesome to fight in. There’s FOUR levels of Z-axis in there. You can go everywhere, you can lock down anything and it all depends on the stage the map is in and what the other team is doing.

That centre is ****ing chess and it didn’t came out of nowhere.[/QUOTE]

That is true. But how is LB not doing this as well? As a first step: remove the barriers added during one patch, where it one tried to refuse attackers to come in from behind. But here, again, something truly miraculous comes in: it is the modern concept of linear maps. Why was that one patch adding those barriers in the first place. Almost NOONE DISCUSSED THAT CHANGE, BUT IT WAS SUCH AN IMPRTANT DESIGN DECISSON, and it reflects the mindeset of xT very very very well; that is: create linear maps, keeping players on one path, go along the COD, modern mapdesign, because that is what we believe our customer wants!!!

As long as this mindest is not broken, there is no improvement. It is just one of many steps though, as even without any of those barriers, the game still remiains linear from mapprespecective. That is also why i am against the notion of LB being a remake of goldrush. It is totally not, as long as such ideas, like this one barrier added during that one patch, are killed to the fullest. They must leave !!! It is a fight in the head !!! A desing fight !!! Rather than anything else !!!

If you decide to make a game for the customer, and leave everything aside(, you, yourself likes), then you will run into a complete DEADEND, not knowing what is right and wrong anymore !!!

(attack) #10

[QUOTE=Fluffy_gIMp;486599]Oh cheeky Mr. Tokamak! :slight_smile:
The reality is you will all have played the maps way more than we have by now, and as a result will have a great understanding of how it works.[/QUOTE]

are you fine with maps where the attackers have to path the defenders spawn , i mean like in prophets and my example?

(Fluffy_gIMp) #11

It’s a long time since I’ve been deeply involved in any level design so it wouldn’t be fair for me to comment for the designers here.
My personal opinion is, if access to an enemy spawn area is too easy, it’ll promote spawn camping

(Fluffy_gIMp) #12

[QUOTE=tokamak;486611]But that can’t be! I refuse to accept that these maps are arbitrarily brilliant. It’s not a coincidence.

What makes Goldrush so spectacular is that entire map has a centre, a core that stays relevant throughout the entire match. The whole escort parade swings around it and no matter what happens, who controls the centre wins. But more importantly, that centre is BLOODY awesome to fight in. There’s FOUR levels of Z-axis in there. You can go everywhere, you can lock down anything and it all depends on the stage the map is in and what the other team is doing.

That centre is ****ing chess and it didn’t came out of nowhere.[/QUOTE]

I think I’ve talked about this before but when we were looking at the layout for Goldrush, ironically (as he now works for us) it was inspired rather heavily by de_dust. I was convinced at the time that the figure of 8 loops it contained were the secrets to it’s success and so tried to mimic them.

And yes on the z-axis stuff you are right, I was pissed off with us making some of our early maps always on flat planes so I blocked the layout first in 3d max so I could quickly visualise how the split levels would work.

As for do I think it is perfect, not at all, I think there’s a lot of luck that seems to go into whether you can get a map that plays well in all situations, Even in the case of Goldrush I felt that the ET Pro version of the map evolved it to be better than the version we first released.

(spookify) #13

[QUOTE=Fluffy_gIMp;486739]It’s a long time since I’ve been deeply involved in any level design so it wouldn’t be fair for me to comment for the designers here.
My personal opinion is, if access to an enemy spawn area is too easy, it’ll promote spawn camping[/QUOTE]

You use some very tricky verbiage. “Promote” spawn Camping… There are 2 ways to look at this:

  1. The ET Gold Rush (Stage 1) Trying to get the tank basically in the Defenders spawn… There people are promoted to Spawn kill. It is also a very odd or loose term to use because the objective is right there so you arent spawn killing rather defending your engys and other teammates and the enemy comes out of 2 hall ways that are connected to the spawn. However I was always the one prone behind the table with a panzer actually in their spawn “spawn camping”…

  2. I ran out of steam and need to get work done and lost my train of thought…

I love Spawn Camping and Spawn Killing!!!

FYI the best teams in ET were the best Spawn Killers… But on the other hand the best teams also had the best ecapes from spawn and used what little shields they had to their advantage… Supply comes to mind…

(attack) #14

ok to be fair sw-goldrush bank stage is nearly all about spawnkill.(this spawnairstrikes…).
the spawn at prophetts place have a roof ,but we have to test how it would wortk in xt.

(prophett) #15

[QUOTE=Fluffy_gIMp;486739]It’s a long time since I’ve been deeply involved in any level design so it wouldn’t be fair for me to comment for the designers here.
My personal opinion is, if access to an enemy spawn area is too easy, it’ll promote spawn camping[/QUOTE]

Obviously agree, but there is a lot more options to escape from that proposed new spawn location that the traditional goldrush defensive spawn.

A smart attacking team’s whole strategy revolves around spawnkilling/putting the defenders down a full 25-30 seconds, so it’ll never go away. Also, a spawns location (the current one) shouldn’t come at the expense of better map gameplay simply because the goal is to reduce spawncamping.

I really, really hope we see some significant improvements to the current maps in the next patch, as well as playable new ones.