List of Suggested Weapon/Ability Tweaks

(INF3RN0) #1

Short list of current content that I think conflicts the most with general balance/consistency. These are just some of my suggestions on how they can be balanced better to provide a more consistent feeling across all mercs, weapons, abilities.

Merc/Archetype

[ul]
[li]Fragger, Thunder, Rhino all have a higher vulnerability to headshot damage (2.2-2.5x).[/li][/ul]

[ul]
[li]Rhino can equip an assault rifle or shotgun as a main weapon.[/li][/ul]

[ul]
[li]Nader Martydom releases a barrage of 4 grenades in separate directions that deal 25 damage per hit.[/li][/ul]

[ul]
[li]Redeye smoke vision reveals his red-eye dot through smoke.[/li][/ul]

[ul]
[li]Phoenix has an additional revive tool ‘life transfer’ which allows him to instantly revive all players in a small AoE, but incapacitates him. Hp of revived players is based on tool charge time with a max of 70 hp.[/li][/ul]

Weapon

[ul]
[li]K121 - increased vertical recoil overall, and increased view kick from incoming damage.[/li][/ul]

[ul]
[li]Auto Snipers – Piercing damage through the body is reduced by 50%. [/li][/ul]

[ul]
[li]Buckshot Shotguns - 20% movement speed bonus, quadratic damage multiplier based on pellets hit; 6, 8, 12, 18, 26, 36, 48, 62. Causes increased view kick on opponents.[/li][/ul]

[ul]
[li]Slug Shotguns - 20% movement speed bonus, piercing damage, headshot multiplier. 60dmg hs, 30bs. Causes increased view kick on opponents.[/li][/ul]

Ability

[ul]
[li]Minigun - very high, but predictable recoil on both axis. Standing still decreases spread significantly.[/li][/ul]

  • [li]Grenade Launcher – direct hits deal a max of 100 damage with 2x radius, normal hits deal a max of 40 damage with 1x radius. Alt fire ‘air burst’ triggers active grenades. [/li]
  • [li]Frag grenade/Conc grenade- alt fire will cause the grenade to drop without bouncing. Grenade AoE is reduced the longer it has been cooked.[/li]

[ul]
[li]Smoke grenade – alt fire will allow you to leak smoke from the canister, concealing redeye and spreading it along his path of travel.[/li][/ul]

[ul]
[li]Airstrike marker- alt fire allows the airstrike marker to be used as a cluster grenade, dealing damage more horizontally.[/li][/ul]

  • [li]Molotov – Primary fire causes moderate damage over time (20dmg/s) and additionally sets opponents on fire (-5hp/s max stack 4s). Alt fire sets the Molotov to trigger after a few seconds after landing, dealing high instant base damage (60dmg) in a reduced AoE and putting full burning stacks on those afflicted. [/li]

[ul]
[li]Proximity mine – Mines are invisible, but emit loud beeps. Mines deal 45 base damage and a 3s speed debuff. [/li][/ul]

  • [li]Turret – Turrets have faster lock-on times, deal reduced damage, and apply a speed debuff per hit.[/li]
  • [li]Sticky mines – Sticky mines will stick to players when they come in close enough proximity. Once attached a player can remove them with a 3s interaction. There is a 3s arming time for stick mines before they can be triggered. Sticky mines deal 35 damage each and a 3s vision debuff.[/li]

[ul]
[li]Healing station – Constant regen at 5hp/s, every 6s the station releases a healing wave that regens 60hp over 4s.[/li][/ul]

(ToonBE) #2

Very good inferno… Realy some nice ideas!! Sticky mines should have more punch though: 100 at point blank and no delay upon detonation.

(PixelTwitch) #3

While I agree that these changes are quite cool.
I think you miss your own target by making these much more inconsistent…

Ignoring the damage + delay I like the idea that sticky bombs attach to players that run past.
I don’t like the idea that Fragger + Thunder + Rhino end up taking the same amount of HS as a FO.
I like that you mention Redeyes, eye showing though the smoke again.
I would personally like to see rhinos minigun have a slightly lower RoF but higher accuracy rather than an Assault Rifle.

I would like to see things like… all Gibs require just 2 headshots with any weapon.
Being helped up would give you your full Gib hp (so if you was not shot after going down you get full health)
I would like to see speed debuffs not be as regular as you would have them. I do however feel we could have a weapon or mercs based around it.
I would like to see mines become bouncing betty mines like in CoD that when you trigger, if you crouch they miss.

I think the idea of reducing AoE on fragger and thunder nades is really quite smart. However, I feel it could result in a massive lack of consistency.

Your shotgun suggestions basically hugely nerf the shotguns and I do not believe that should be the case.

Healing station, I would much rather see it trigger a 15hp/s heal every 1 second. However if you take any damage. It prevents you healing for till the next wave. This would mean fighting vs someone with very good aim would give little advantage but still make it strong.

(spookify) #4

Please no more speed difference between mercs… shotgun with speed burst is the stupidest thing ever!

The hit box difference and over all size of the merc is enough… Then you add HP difference and its just dumb with the crazy speed difference.

(spookify) #5

Please no more speed difference between mercs… shotgun with speed burst is the stupidest thing ever!

The hit box difference and over all size of the merc is enough… Then you add HP difference and its just dumb with the crazy speed difference.

(INF3RN0) #6

The consistency behind all of these suggestions is to remove crutch mechanics and give a more equalized approach across mercs. I want abilities to feel like tools or special weapons, which either require you to work in cooperation with or learn to master.

I think it’s more important to reinforce the idea that you can kill any other merc with the right strategy. Having this huge HP boost on these three mercs is useful in that it allows them to push even harder, but I think they need a weakness. They still have the most deadly weaponry and consistent abilities. Increased headshot vulnerability would be the most reasonable thing to me, as it’s not like the usefulness of the mercs is degraded. The extra HP will still absorb a lot of damage since it’s not like anyone is getting 100% headshots all the time.

Remember that his minigun is his ability, and I’d rather have less of a limited range of use. The minigun wouldn’t make it as a ranged weapon and is superior to the shotgun anyway, so having an AR seems reasonable.

I like the idea of debuffs combined with auto-damage abilities, simply because I don’t like players thinking it’s a crutch. Why should a mine or turret need to get the kills? A debuff would increase the player’s chances of getting the kills, but it’s the player who is going to be doing the brunt of the damage instead of a mine they dropped on the other side of the map. I think it’s better to integrate most debuffs into abilities rather than weapons.

I think a general mechanic of reducing AoE based on cook time would be a solid means of making nades more skillful. Consistency comes from the player, so either you’re really good at landing cooked grenades in the right spot or your throwing your nades in the right places at the right time.

I disagree. These changes would make the shotgun have a less flat-line skill curve and require consistency. The playstyle of a shotgun should be to dance circles around players, but require them to hit all of their shots to be really effective. As it’s been so far, anyone with a shotgun can take a massive chunk of your health and not have any consistency to their aim or tactics whatsoever. The only thing that might be weak as a result is the low HP of proxy and the like. I’d like to see their HP raised as I don’t think their speed is enough to matter. The only reason her HP is low like that is because it is effective in combination with ezpz shotguns, which in this case wouldn’t be needed as much.

[QUOTE=PixelTwitch;517707]
Healing station, I would much rather see it trigger a 15hp/s heal every 1 second. However if you take any damage. It prevents you healing for till the next wave. This would mean fighting vs someone with very good aim would give little advantage but still make it strong.[/QUOTE]

I think a non-interruptible pulsing heal is needed to balance the ability with the other ones. Having the default regen of 15hp/s be interruptible by damage might be a good compromise.

The other stuff you mention sounds pretty good, especially on the gibbing.

(ToonBE) #7

Nades schould stay the same… Theyvare spot on!

(Glottis-3D) #8

i wouldnt say they are spot on.
more like spam on…

…

:smiley:

(PixelTwitch) #9

I think it’s more important to reinforce the idea that you can kill any other merc with the right strategy. Having this huge HP boost on these three mercs is useful in that it allows them to push even harder, but I think they need a weakness. They still have the most deadly weaponry and consistent abilities. Increased headshot vulnerability would be the most reasonable thing to me, as it’s not like the usefulness of the mercs is degraded. The extra HP will still absorb a lot of damage since it’s not like anyone is getting 100% headshots all the time.

I do understand what you are saying however I don’t think it would play out like you expect it would in practice.
First off, the consistency would feel much more off due to the ability to either survive a lot of shots or die almost instantly. So while I understand that this could work well for balancing, I feel it does nothing to help the feeling of consistency. Also, this seems to go against Splash Damages own design targets, that are built around not every Merc having the ability to take on any other Merc. The problem with the heavy Mercs right now in my opinion is that their “counter” is teamwork and we have very little of that currently in the game.

Remember that his minigun is his ability, and I’d rather have less of a limited range of use. The minigun wouldn’t make it as a ranged weapon and is superior to the shotgun anyway, so having an AR seems reasonable.

I do agree with you…
My issue is that given a AR he becomes very strong and especially at long range. He becomes the best long range Merc excluding snipers. and even then its 4 sniper body shots and 2 headshots.

I like the idea of debuffs combined with auto-damage abilities, simply because I don’t like players thinking it’s a crutch. Why should a mine or turret need to get the kills? A debuff would increase the player’s chances of getting the kills, but it’s the player who is going to be doing the brunt of the damage instead of a mine they dropped on the other side of the map. I think it’s better to integrate most debuffs into abilities rather than weapons.

Again, I agree. I actually don’t think that many abilities should be an instant kill and more should be done to balance it out. In the terms of Turret though, slowing them down will make them easier to kill with the turret so that could be seen as a turret buff. With the mines though, its almost a simple nerf that would require you to baby sit them. This is a strong contrast to the Merc itself that is fast with a shotgun so more designed to roam. The mine becomes simply an alert to where people. I would much rather see mines buffed so its more likely to do the damage that could kill but also at the same time more easily avoided (ie the bouncing betty idea) so it has some counter play.

I think a general mechanic of reducing AoE based on cook time would be a solid means of making nades more skillful. Consistency comes from the player, so either you’re really good at landing cooked grenades in the right spot or your throwing your nades in the right places at the right time.

My issue with consistency is with the people getting hit by the nades and not for the people throwing it. a long range nade takes very little cooking meaning its AoE would be large and close range it would be small even though the skill required is very small and actually imho nades are easier to hit at longer ranges. Personally I would like to see nades to % based damage on each of the mercs. A maximum of 100% on lights, 80% on mediums and 60% on heavies. The nade should be for starting or exiting a fight not an instant kill.

I disagree. These changes would make the shotgun have a less flat-line skill curve and require consistency. The playstyle of a shotgun should be to dance circles around players, but require them to hit all of their shots to be really effective. As it’s been so far, anyone with a shotgun can take a massive chunk of your health and not have any consistency to their aim or tactics whatsoever. The only thing that might be weak as a result is the low HP of proxy and the like. I’d like to see their HP raised as I don’t think their speed is enough to matter. The only reason her HP is low like that is because it is effective in combination with ezpz shotguns, which in this case wouldn’t be needed as much.

Mathematically this is not the case…
Your numbers would require a minimum of 3 seconds to kill a fragger or thunder, 4 seconds rhino, 2 seconds light, 2-3 seconds medium. In contrast, its only 0.3 seconds to kill the shotgun Merc. Even with the smaller hit box and speed this would simply not add up… Even more so when you are talking about slugs where a full clip would not kill a heavy if chest shots and would require 5 headshots for a rhino. What you are suggesting makes them impractical.
This is also based off 100% accuracy, something that the other mercs would require to kill the shotgun merc in 0.3 seconds. The truth is when you drop that accuracy it actually gets worse for the shotgun compared to the other mercs also… ie, 50% accuracy would require 6 seconds compared to other mercs 0.6 seconds. consistency is worse and honestly, it just would not make sense. 100% accuracy kill time difference is 2.7 seconds (quite high) where 50% would be 5.4 seconds and thats just crazy. When you work it out compared to a rhino… your looking at nearly 9 seconds to kill with average accuracy.

This is all excluding damage drop off also…
simply DPS would be the lowest in the whole game at all ranges.

Also, your pellet multiplier should be done in reverse if you want to enforce consistency. Pellets should do more and slowly start to do less the more that hit not the other way around. This way 1cm to the left or right can be the difference between 8hp and 50hp very inconsistent.

(this is based off 1 shot per second that I know is actually slower than the real RoF however the results would still have this huge disparity if its was accurate)

(INF3RN0) #10

I don’t quite get the ‘consistency’ argument in the way you’re posing it (like on the grenade cooking), especially in a game like this. There’s already a hundred examples in the game that I could use that would fall into the same category. What is most important is to have consistent skill input to output ratios. The most concurrent theme is body shots vs headshots, so I don’t see enough difference with these to agree with your standpoint. No one can perfectly gauge what is damaging them at every moment, which is why you enforce it by knowing that when you’re taking serious damage it’s because they are doing it right and that is usually enough for most. Knowing whether something was random vs skill is what leads to most confusion and frustration.

I think you’re taking my examples a bit too seriously too, where as in the case of the shotgun it was just a general concept that wasn’t locked to exact numbers as they are now. What I want from a shotgun is for it to not be reliant on specific mercs or specific ranges or feel random. A shotgun should essentially involve the same skill as a sniper rifle, where the trade is simply less burst damage for more agility. A buckshot style lessens the need for precision, but at the cost of reduced damage depending on aim consistency. Like I said, these were just theoretical starting places, which I think could be easily adjusted to work by making speed the attribute of the weapon and not the merc. Add in some debuffs if further measures are needed. At that point range and hp wouldn’t be so much of an issue, so it wouldn’t feel like it was such a situationally useful weapon and only on specific mercs. This is purely to do with how damage is dealt in comparison to every other weapon type, where it follows a scheme much more consistent with those and all the fine tuned details aren’t set in stone. Try to imagine a sniper rifle that was severely range dependent and could output damage just as effortlessly as a shotgun in its comfort zone, and then think about how much better it feels as a skillful and more versatile weapon.

(PixelTwitch) #11

Well let me first say what each person considers “skill” seems to vary massively…

It seems to me your argument for consistency is made almost purely from the aggressors point of view. As you even said your talking about the consistency of skill in power out. However, I feel it is just as (if not more) important for consistency when viewing from the victims point of view. Let’s look at headshots vs body shots since you have already mentioned this…

In a games like Battlefield for instance, I know that my favourite Assault Rifle takes 5 body shots at close range, 6 at medium and 7 at long range to get the kill. Headshots on the other hand take 2 at close, 2 at medium and 3 at long. This is extremely consistent and when playing I know that at close range its going to take a MAXIMUM of 5 bullets landed to kill any enemy. This gives me as the aggressor the ability to turn, shoot and hit the approximate amount of bullets and turn away before even getting the kill feed alert knowing I have done the damage needed. This simple bit of information allows me to make split second choices to how I approach a fight and enables me to react quicker to new threats. It also allows me to keep my ammo well managed as very few bullets are wasted shooting at a already dead player. On the other hand, we have Dirty Bomb. Damage over range can take double the ammo, multiple damage multipliers across the body, multiple default health amounts, in combat healing, high random spread and poor feedback all effecting the number of possibilities. It could take 5 bullets to drop someone at close range or it could take 15, this gap is huge and results in that feeling of inconsistency. Rarely will you not waste bullets shooting at a already dead player, rarely would you turn away from the player you was fighting until you see the alert for the kill and rarely do you go into a fight confident. Fragger vs Fragger running around a corner with players of equal skill to only have one of the players take the other out in 5 instant headshots and leaving the other player thinking “WTF?!”. Few spawns later that exact same fight can happen but this time both players shoot 20+ bullets before the person that dominated the fight the first time drops. I know we have all come across this a number of times and this is a prime example of poor consistency. Not to mention that due to the spread mechanics you end up in a situation where the more bullets its taking, the more bullets it will take unless you stop and let that spread reset.

So we know this is inconsistent to the player “fighting” however what about the victim? ie, someone that needs to reload or chooses not to fight? Due to that same inconsistency you really do not have the information required to make a good decision at that moment in time. Let’s say you bump into a enemy player (Fragger) and you only have pistol ammo left as a Sawbones. You shoot your 7 bullets see that the Fragger is still at over half hp and you have only been hit once in the leg out of the enemies first 20 bullets… What do you do? Do you reload your pistol and continue the fight? Do you run to cover? Do you go for melee? Personally, in this situation I feel I would likely run for cover to be honest (providing its close). Say you did that… “DING DING DING!” your dead… Fragger managed to get 3 headshots on you as you run to cover. Is this skill? Well no we are looking at 30+ bullets into a clip and the spread is rather huge so in all likelihood you just simply fell victim to random deviation. In that situation the game gave you no really decent information to base your choices on and so as a result you just end up thinking “bull****”.

Anyway, back on topic…
Your idea of having consistent skill in to power out is also flawed because this should never be the case. Something that takes 5x the skill of something else to execute should not have 5x the power output. Also, we are not computers, so consistency becomes more a game of perception rather than one of numbers. If you was a computer you would simply always play as Arty or Redeye, Iron sight all the time and kill people before they can physically put out the damage required to kill you (Excluding Shotguns on corners and Snipers) because skill is removed as the currency and replaced by raw DPS. In a perfect world, a low skilled Rhino should be able to consistently win out in fights vs a medium skilled Fragger but a medium skilled Rhino should still lose to a high skilled Fragger. This is why I expect so many changes once larger number of players start entering the beta. I expect to see the skill in to power out ratio start really splitting the Merc pool big time. I am confident that Arty and Skyhammer will be split this way and I am excited to see how it will happen. When we have a Skyhammer that is a really easy to use Merc for noobs that will destroy a medium skilled Arty but still be destroyed by an expert Arty. I would give Fletcher a speed boost and make him the high skilled Proxy equivalent. Basically if a player could clone himself and play vs himself and he was high skilled, he should always win as Arty vs Skyhammer but if you removed all his skill and made him a noob, he would always win as Skyhammer vs Arty. I am very much against a high skilled Proxy being able to win a fight vs a low skilled Rhino for example. Your choice of Merc should be a big chunk of that information that you need when going into a fight.

My reason for voicing my concern with the Grenade was simply because surviving a nade taking only a small amount of damage at 10 feet away one moment to then be destroyed by it at 20 feet away a few moments later will only add to a players frustration. Even if it really makes very little difference to what they could/would have done. Trust in a games mechanics is one of the most important factors when it comes to immersion and confidence. The more inconsistency you throw at a player the more likely they are to feel frustrated, confused and simply give up. If you are to add inconsistency for a valid cause (for example the nade mechanics you are suggesting) you need to make sure that you add in additional game systems to compensate for that inconsistency. For example CoD styled nade indicators that are color coded to how much damage they will do when they explode. We humans are simple creatures really and we are much more willing to accept things before they happen. Even if it is just for a couple of hundred milliseconds… That said, in general, prolonged deaths should be avoided where possible in games. However when you cannot avoid them at least try and communicate them effectively. This way when you die at least it gives you the information to that it was a good throw and not just a random death.

(INF3RN0) #12

I don’t think the length of that post was necessary lol, but I did read it. I think that a better balance can be struck overall, where in you can have the difference between a sniper, skyhammer, and arty as a better example. Each will involve enough decipherable skill consistency that a death won’t feel random. Of course a sniper who never misses and has bot like reactions would seem to be the most deadly followed by arty, but that would never be a reality for us humans. The problem with things like the grenade launcher, shotgun, minigun, etc are that they are designed less around skill and more around statistics. Is a shotgun balanced when you adjust the damage and range until it results in an average flat-line 50/50? That’s the problem to me, which is that the approach to design is not attempting to implement any comparable skill mechanics and thus is compensating the low skill and limiting the high skill via situational low input efficiency. Like what is a ‘high skilled minigunner’ because I truly think it would be silly for anyone to ever lay claim to that title. The marginal tactical play isn’t nearly enough for these weapon types either, there simply needs to be more to it. A sniper vs a skyhammer involves the same concept of tactical comfortzones, but it’s not dictated by it to such an extreme degree. Both would still require a lot more skill input to actually accomplish anything.

On the specific grenade cooking situation for example… to me cooking a grenade defeats the entire point of just throwing it. You’re basically lowering the skill requirement of nade timing and reaping the same benefit, which is backwards to me. When shooting someone in the body was more or just as efficient as shooting someone in the head it felt like pure nonsense. When we transitioned to stronger abilities in general, I’d die to a lot more people who I never would have previously simply because they found more consistent damage through abilities than the core gun play- and not because it was a different skill but rather that it was plain easier. The same goes with certain weapon types that work in the same general skill-flattened manner. To me there’s no reason why we can’t make everything feel more homogenous and enforce much better skill input to damage output ratios, while still maintaining a relatively equal appeal amongst it all. Even a sniper vs skyhammer vs arty will still be a lot more consistent than if you included the oddball types. I wouldn’t really know who to bet on among all equally skilled players. I’m all for skill variations here, but there simply is less measurable skill in certain areas and that’s my issue.

(ToonBE) #13

I read these posts.

A cooked nade has to do the same damage in the same area as an uncooked nade.

Pixeltwitch is right about concistency. That is the biggest problem… I am never sure how much bullets I need to land to kill someone… This is frustrating and you can never feel confident in a fight… There are just too much variables…

The game I played like 10 years ago I could say against my teammates: Hit him with 5 bodyshots SMG and then someone else could go in with a handgun to finish him off… It was so consistent that I new one hit from a pistol was enough to get the kill… DirtyBomb should have similar consitency and longer ttk… Now it is just a mess really…

Why not drop horizontal recoil on most weapons and keep a predictable vertical recoil… Use a spread that is simple… 0-15 is close weapon X does 20hp\hit 15-30 weapon X does 15hp/hit 30-9999 weapon X does 10hp/hit and then something similar for headshots/legshots

This would give the game the right feel… No it seems like I am shooting with toyguns

/h4ckinator