Level Design Flaws

(kevinski) #1

To aid new (or even veteran) mappers in creating more player-friendly maps, I thought it’d be a good idea to start a thread to discuss aspects of maps that really killed the overall feel or playability of the respective maps. You can be specific by naming the map and pointing out what you feel are flaws, or you can simply list flaws that you’ve noticed among many, many maps. Whatever floats your boat.

And please, developers of mentioned maps, please take comments in a mature fashion.

1944 Huertgen
Too much foliage. Seriously. Although I’m sure people with newer video cards probably won’t mind, but I’m using a 64MB GeForce2 MX 400. It ran the original RtCW just fine, although it doesn’t run the pack-in ET maps as well (but still decent enough - save Radar). Trees and the like doesn’t hafta stress a video card. RivrStyx’s Den of Lions is a good example of nice-looking, GeForce2-friendly tree usage.

Den of Lions
Too many unnecessary areas. Honestly, I had trouble finding a purpose for many of the areas you can access in this map. I spent far too much time trying to find my way around. Also, the lighting - while realistic - resulted in some excessively dark areas.

Desert Temple Final
I know a LOT of people will disagree with me on this one, but c’mon…it takes forever to escort the tank in this level WITHOUT any opposition. I can only imagine how long it takes during an actual online match. The tank moves far too slowly…and it has to travel way too far…

(G0-Gerbil) #2

Desert temple - map from my ‘favourite’ mapper of all time :wink:
The reason people like Temple is because it’s big, takes ages, and has a long time limit.

The result? It lets people, even the crap ones, get high XP. You gotta remember that on publics, there are many people who rate their own enjoyment in XP, and Temple delivers. Personally, I think it delivers little else and will immediately quit a server if it crops up, but there you go :slight_smile:

Anyway you’ll need to detail lots more maps to build up an overall picture, but you made a start :slight_smile:

(Shai) #3

Temple is hell for allies…good luck guys. I only like to play that map as axis, and hope the allies make it to the temple so I can camp at the traps and laugh whenever some poor ally walks into my wall of spikes. Majority of the time allies never get that tank past the bridge, it’s just way too open. The little well you can pop out of is cool, but its damn hard to get out of it and by the time you do the axis have spotted you.

(Irrelevant) #4

Lazy clipping really annoys me.

An example which really gets to me is the caves in Rhine Bridge. When I’m running through a narrow passage, I like to stay close to the wall, and bunnyhop a bit. However, there are ‘wooden supporting frames’ at ~2m intervals, which stick out noticably from the walls and ceiling. The result: When I try to stay pressed against the wall, I get caught on one of these frames. When I jump, I’m stopped in midair by hitting my head off a frame.

When you have a feature up against a wall, put clip brushes across it at 45deg so people can get past it easily, like so:

________
      
      
        
________
 \  / 
  \/  
   ¯¯

That way, when people try to slide past it, they are pushed out around it instead of stopping dead.

(chavo_one) #5

Unless it’s large enough to hide behind. Then you would be streamlining movement through there, but removing cover.

(Irrelevant) #6

Yes, that’s true.

Only streamline it if you think that, in reality, you would only ever want to step around it and never hide behind it.

If you’re unsure, use steeper clipping, so it’d guide the player without forcing them.

Maybe you could put all the ones you’re not sure about in a big func_static or something, so the server admin could choose to disable them if s/he doesn’t like them.

(pack) #7

Temple is a nice map. It has some flaws of course, but in the allies on a public server should be able to win this level. (I’m speaking of the “final” version, which fixes a lot of balanceproblems)

It’s the only map with some nice sniperduel action afaik (offi’s and customs) and I think it’s fun on publics. So as an allie on a weak team you still can have fun sniping axis…

It probably won’t be that balanced if it would be a server full of high skilled players (would be almost impossible for allies to win) but imo the mappers did a great job in making a fun map for pub servers. If there are tankspeedproblems, this can be fixed by increasing b_moverscale on etpro servers.

I help picking maps for two 10 map campaign/etpro servers and we try to have a lot of custom maps on them. Unfortunately it’s very difficult to find enough appropriate maps, but I have to say that I’m rather satisfied about templefinal. And the players like that map, which is all what matters if you are serveradmin I guess. :cool:

Den of lions was designed for a 64 man server like happy pinguin where people would play hours and hours on one map. The RTCW version was played for some weeks on happy pinguing, so some spaces that look empty when you explore them on your own might be filled on such servers. It’s not really my kind of thingie but I think it’s a good map for such purpose.

–
(I have to admit I don’t really know the 1944_ map)

(G0-Gerbil) #8

It’s the only map with some nice sniperduel action afaik (offi’s and customs) and I think it’s fun on publics. So as an allie on a weak team you still can have fun sniping axis…

cough helms deepo cough Actually that got to the point that one server admin disabled snipers, so I’ve toned it down a bit in the next release :slight_smile:

Unfortunately it’s very difficult to find enough appropriate maps, but I have to say that I’m rather satisfied about templefinal. And the players like that map, which is all what matters if you are serveradmin I guess.

Problem is it’s hard for new maps to become established - it’s quite clear that early maps, no matter how shit, make an impact, and Marko has made his name this way. I’d say Drakir did too, but at least some of his maps are enjoyable :slight_smile: I’m fortunate enough to have a couple of clan servers I can run maps on, and a few friendly server admins who like my maps enough to include them or run dedicated servers, but very few people have this chance.
In all, it’s only the ‘big names’, however they made their names, who have maps run on enough servers to get the map established, and I think it’s fair to say that maps become popular more often than not, not because they are any good, but because they are widespread enough and played enough so people learn them. People always prefer a map they are comfortable on, no matter whether it’s actually balanced or not.

Anyway, the map competition should help here, giving everyone a level chance of getting their map out there and widely played. Of course, if I was judging (probably good that I’m not!) then no map Marko has yet released comes close to the level required. Whether my own do or not is of course subjective :wink:

Anyway, rather than continue this as a ‘marko bashing’ thread, how about comments on some more maps?

EG:

Ponza Isle - fun layout, but ridiculously slow framerate :frowning: There are techy glitches but it’s not final yet so won’t comment on them here
Transmitter beta2 - lovely map, thematically consistent and lotsa foliage! Unfortunately it suffers from ‘final objective’ trouble - by that I mean tuning the radio mast is a bit tough should Axis actually defend properly - 1 route up, very thin.
hide2 - suffers from too many releases, all conflicting, and many implying they are the final final final version :frowning:
mml_church - too many bugs to mention :wink:

(pack) #9

mml_helmsdeep: didn’t check it out because it’s still in “first playable” and when i searched for download it also gave some patch-pk3’s which I guess was too much for the serv ) - prolly next version will be checked.

new maps: I really try to check out sites etc when looking for new maps. The public that is playing on our 2 servers is used to play customs and webdownload (very nice feature of et) is enabled so new maps get introduced easily.

So we have a 10 map cycle, which might sound noobie, but some people like it, and those people play on our servers :slight_smile:

10 maps (7 customs):

Citadel: Ctf map: (marko again :p). I thought it was a good map to give everybody some xp. I’m not that satisfied about it, framerate seems to drop a bit, but atm it’s a keeper.

et_assault_beta: New map on our servers, might be a bit too easy at defensive side. Dunno what we will do with it.

Caen: I’m satisfied with this map, has some flaws tho, is certainly a keeper untill something better shows up.

Oasis: (off)

bulge_beta1: Map has shitloads of potential, now it’s often unbalanced, will probably be removed untill next version is ready

supplydepot: keeper, most definitely. Maybe the best custom on that serv right now.

goldrush: (off)

temple_final: (see above, positive about this map for those servers)

raiders: This map is really professionaly made, orignal, nice scripting,…
Might be a bit longish but you can’t really find any flaws. Problem is that together with bulge, these two maps require big downloads, resulting in a lot of 999…

fueldump: (off)

contest thingie: there will be one eventually, guess we need more patience. I’m still sending mails :banghead:

(G0-Gerbil) #10

Interesting list of customs there.
It goes to show though, that even in a 10 map cycle with only 7 customs, you are still struggling to find enough that meet your standards - some are in there ‘just because’ :confused:
I do think though, that even after all this time, there aren’t many decent ET maps, and I’d REALLY hate for the custom scene to go the way of RTCW’s, which so far I’ve yet to see any difference to.

Out of curiosity, have you looked into Venice yet?

As for Helm’s deep - you probably tried to join one of the ND80 servers - the admin there created some ‘patch’ pk3s, most of which are large sound samples from the film - adds to the atmosphere and gets some fun comments in the intermissions (mcmanflesh burger anyway?) but yeah, they are pretty hefty :confused:
Proper alpha will be out soon, so maybe I’ll be able to twist your arm to give it a try :slight_smile:

[edit]The longer we have for the comp the more maps I’ll hopefully complete for it :slight_smile: Of course, on the other hand I think ET needs a boost in decent ‘official’ maps ASAP :confused:

(pack) #11

Yes, played it some rounds - but only 2vs2, 3vs3, not enough to decide anything. I put it on the “let’s see what next version will bring” list I believe. Map came out when this campaign went up on our servers, and we don’t change maps all the time (better let server public first discover the maps that are on it…).

  • It was another 20 Mb map to download for the players :frowning:

mml_helmsdeep: checked it out on my own meanwhile and looks really nice, can’t say anything on the gameplay ofc :slight_smile:

(chavo_one) #12

I often feel like Venice is invisible or something. I’ve been following this thread from the start, hoping for some criticism on Venice since I’ll be releasing the final later this week. But maybe that’s a good sign, since the thread topic is “Level Design Flaws”. :wink:

(ausman) #13

played venice the other day on public 5v5 and I thought it was really good, plenty of corridoors for intimate battles and the objectives were well placed, the map could do with less plain looking buldings and some better textures though.

Downloaded byzantine, that map has alot of dead space and unless your playing 20v20 would just be too hard to get into some major battles.

(ToasterKing) #14

I played Venice the other day…wow…

I espically liked the fact that even tho the obj was loaded into the boat the game still had a while to play out. Would like to see a little more cover in the curch enterance yard…but it all works out very well…

I had some insance MG battles…on the axis MG vs the tank… :smiley:

(pack) #15

I often feel like Venice is invisible or something. I’ve been following this thread from the start, hoping for some criticism on Venice since I’ll be releasing the final later this week. But maybe that’s a good sign, since the thread topic is “Level Design Flaws”. ;)[/quote]

It might be a good idea to postpone any “final” versions of maps you have been working hard on. Especially if you would like to submit it on that contest wich would give the map a chance to be come official (if you’d be interested in that). After you have released a final, it’s still possible ofcourse, but than it could get confusing if you want to give “venice” name to your new final (name of the map in offi mappack if that map would be selected)…

I’m sorry for the lack of updates on that contest, I hope there will be some more information soon…

(MuffinMan) #16

may I mention another invisible map - mc_bergen

it’s being tested thoroughly and I am confident we get a good balance until final!
check it out: http://www.rtcwfiles.com/file.info?ID=23490

and after all it was aimed for the contest from beginning ;o)

gerbil - I completely agree on your opinion, first maps are the ones to get popular no matter if good or not as most players just have no sense for quality (unfortunately)

really looking forward to the contest, I just hope for a quick decision

(Fusen) #17

havnt had the oppertunity to play bergen yet but it does look damn sweet… also havn’t seen mml_church in a while :frowning: although was very easy to win if you just go up the left staircase when entering the church go along the first floor jump onto the window ledge then jump onto the big organ get the objective and run back again could finish it in like 50 seconds to a minute. Also drakir’s new navarone is pretty decent

Motors

(G0-Gerbil) #18

Church is pretty solid on a fair number of server rotations, but it’s also been blacklisted by people running marko maps (fanboys). As I’m sure you could guess, this almost bothers me - I take it as a compliment :smiley: Also, as you point out, it’s a small map and is often at odds with custom servers - which tend to have larger player numbers and XP save etc (for which it was never designed for, being originally an RTCW map for small numbers). The new version should fix that hopefully, but still… Oddly enough it has a strong fanbase in Australia, where it’s used in leagues / ladders etc.

bergen I haven’t played online yet - part of the problem with the customs is there are so many it’s hard to find the time. Of course I try to prioritize with those that look good, but that in itself is unfair on the other ones - often I think as mappers our time might be better spent on the ones that look / play bad so we can give the makers more feedback to get more maps up to an acceptable standard really. The real problem is it simply takes a whole lot of time to fine tune and bugfix a map - god alone knows how many revisions and time was spent on the official maps, and still look at some of the issues with them cough battery ramp. A custom can’t really hope to compete properly, especially given how hard it is to get your map out there and on servers, and THEN find it (since of course it’ll most likely be in rotation, so only crops up 1 time in 6 or so!).

(G0-Gerbil) #19

It might be a good idea to postpone any “final” versions of maps you have been working hard on. Especially if you would like to submit it on that contest wich would give the map a chance to be come official (if you’d be interested in that). After you have released a final, it’s still possible ofcourse, but than it could get confusing if you want to give “venice” name to your new final (name of the map in offi mappack if that map would be selected)…

That’s where Venice SE comes in. Or, for the more pretentious, Venice TE (I HATE it when people name something ‘tournament edition’, like they are begging people to use it in tournies! Currently I’m thinking of naming next Church, Church AE - either for Australian Edition (cos they are really helping with feedback) or Another Edition :smiley:

(MuffinMan) #20

I don’t go along with the people saying battery is unbalanced. it is unbalanced with bad teams (both sides), that might be true, but it with 2 decent teams it’s fair, played it with 15 lives limit some time ago and won as allies, you just need people with courage running up no matter what, throw airstrikes up there and bomb with mortar and panzer, threre are not many places where they can come to the edge without being shot quickly, I don’t want to say it’s easy but it can be done

oh and btw: bergen is in constant rotation at our clan-server: 62.4.74.142:27980
7th of 7 maps, everybody likes it, only propblem is that many people don’t have it and don’t want to wait for the download
’