Let's talk a bit, seems like Recon/Ops might be a problem.


(watsyurdeal) #1

So, after a literal tidal wave of complaints regarding Phantom, people are questioning his role in the game and what exactly he brings to it. But…then again, let’s think about Vasilli real quick, what does he bring to the table?

I mean, besides being a Sniper, what point is there to have one where the majority of our fights are hipfire? Close to Medium Range at best? A good Vasilli is basically constant area denial, anywhere he can get a good sight line, he’ll basically dominate. And since head shots instant gib, he basically stops a hold or a push instantly. Cause a Medic is rendered useless for all intents and purposes.

And you might say, “well that’s the point, other classes can gib too”, yes but their abilities have a cooldown. Fragger’s Nades, Naders Launcher, which only gibs on already downed enemies, Skyhammer’s Air Strikes, I could go on. Each of those have a real tactical drawback to how they are used, you have to be careful and time them right to get the most out of them. With Vasilli it’s constant, it’s completely in control of the Sniper in question, and that makes him more deadly.

They tried to fix this by adding sway but…does it really do any good? People who were already good at Sniping don’t even notice it seems, and those who aren’t so good, the skill gap widens more because of it. Plus there’s aim punch which is a whole other topic in itself.

So, then, what about the other Recon guys? Surely they add something right? Well Red Eye can smoke an area, and use thermals to see though said smoke, and those thermals directly counter Phantom…as does Vasilli’s Motion Sensor…and…shit this is a problem isn’t it? We have classes that basically counter each other…which begs the question of why they exist at all.

I think we really need to take a good hard look at what Vasilli and Phantom SHOULD do, how they should do it, and what does it bring to the game? And we might as well do it now, because Red Eye and Aimee aren’t going to be any easier to figure out.


(stealthyBass) #2

Well Redeye will provide cover with his smoke for the rest of the team. Dropping it on an objective so the person repairing/delivering is difficult to see for anyone but another Redeye is pretty solid support from my point of view.


(Nail) #3

and when Vassili was in rotation everyone screamed OP, 1 shot, HB sensor is a #@$&^% wallhack


(Ardez1) #4

Vasilli and Phantom are designed to kill in special ways. One can gather information for the team and the other can do the same thing, but at large risk with voice comms required. Those abilities can be used to enhance the killing power of those mercs.

But the merc countering isn’t llimited to Phantom is countered by Vasilli, etc.

Explosives clear away Red Eyes smoke and Stokers Molotov. Phantom counters bushwhackers turret. The turret counters most weak mercs. Nader counters Rhino quite easily. Rhino can counter Phantoms and pretty much anything that decides to get too close. Anybody with explosives(besides proxy) can counter aura’s station fairly well.

Every merc has it’s uses in some shape or form.


(Potato_Ladder) #5

Vaseline: Kill any priority target depending on the situation and give your team an idea of where the enemy will be coming from.
Phantom: Same as Vaseline but can give an idea of the enemy line up but only if he/she use mic communication.
RedEye: Provide smoke cover, spot enemy and eliminate priority target if he/she enters his smoke otherwise keep clear, keep spotting and keep shooting.

That’s about all I can think of, suggestions are welcome.


(watsyurdeal) #6

Maybe I have flawed thinking but I feel like Vasilli and Phantom should be Glass Cannons

Phantom should have more health than Vasilli, sure, but not 120, 110 would be better. That and get rid of the freaking armor.

As for Vasilli, I question why he needs 100 health and not 90 instead. He doesn’t need it, if he messes up and the enemy gets close they should be able to reasonably take him down. But with a bodyshot from the MoA, 75 then finish them with the Machine Pistol, killing Vasilli in a 1v1 like that is really hard.

I’d say nerf his health, and get rid of the sway while moving, it didn’t fix jack, just made him slightly harder to play. But as I said, people who were already good don’t even notice.

As for Red Eye, I’ll wait till I play him.


(misspo) #7

Vaseline


(sinKrin) #8

As far as I’m aware, Vasilli is the only merc who can kill two mercs at the same time with his gun. Maybe three if you’re very lucky?

If I’m playing as Vasilli my main objective is covering my team and taking out any enemy medics as soon as I can. The machine pistol is a great sidearm for when you want to get in close.


(Gi.Am) #9

Ok I see it this way.
Recons are pretty well defined in this game. The have a overall theme of visibility going on.

Vassili - gives his team better vision
Redeye - gives hit team better vision + hinders the vision of the enemy
Aimee - well they want to rework her but she also gave vision
Phantom - well he doesn’t give any vision (which imo is questionable) but he removes himself from the vision of the enemy

The more important role is that they are a single target, high damage class. Which makes them the second damage dealer class besides the assault. difference between them is. The assaults are overall more tanky more upfront and deal consistent damage and have all a ability that affects an area. Compared to that the recons are more situational (bound to a location vassili longrange, phantom shortrange, redeye midrange) less constant damage and infact have to pay their high damage with comparable low HP.

Vassili is so far the lowest HP male Merc in the game. And it is imo a fair guess that Aimee will stand to Vassili similar as Kira stands to Arty. Therefore propably around Proxy/Aura speed HP, while fullfilling a similar longrange role as Vassili. And in longrange you don’t need high HP having a bit more than the ultra squishies is nice and means he can survive stuff they can’t (including PDP countersnipe headshots).
Imo 100 is ok for him there will be recons with more HP there will be recons with less.

Now lets look at Phantom he is the tank of the recon class. Still he isn’t tanky at all (shield aside for a moment since it is not in use while in combat). He is, compared to other classes average. But he needs that extra HP, unlike Vassili who sits in a cozy spot in the back, he has to traverse the effective range and in quite a few cases actually fight, in the effective range of all other Mercs. He has to fullfill the primary recon role of quickly taking out problematic Mercs while sitting in perfect shotgun range. Therefore he needs more survivability than Vassili.

Now we could argue how this more in survivability should be achieved (there are many posibilities but they all have pros/cons). SD went with giving him more HP which makes sense considering that the way his cloak/shield functions it is not helping him to survive when he reached his target and needs to get out the moment he decloaks he becomes a medium Merc (katana bugs aside). comparable low speed / high HP also means that the Mercs he can the easiest are the one that can escape him the easiest. While also giving him a fighting chance against those mercs he has a hard time killing.


(XavienX) #10

This leads me to wonder what Aimee will do with her motion sensor.


(Ardez1) #11

I believe previous it was a longer range but monodirectional sensor. This is opposite of Vasilli who has a short range omnidirectional sensor. That may be different or I could very easily be wrong.


(Eox) #12

[quote=“sinKrin;47960”]As far as I’m aware, Vasilli is the only merc who can kill two mercs at the same time with his gun. Maybe three if you’re very lucky?

If I’m playing as Vasilli my main objective is covering my team and taking out any enemy medics as soon as I can. The machine pistol is a great sidearm for when you want to get in close.[/quote]

The sniper rifle penetrates targets, yes. I guess there’s no targets limit to that penetration. However, shots like that are extremely hard to get. You can only expect those at some key points of a map, on a full moon a friday 13th, while dancing ballet in a green tutu.


(Ardez1) #13

To be clear are we talking about a roles place in competitive or in pubs? It feels like not everybody is on the same page.


(Alchimi) #14

[quote=“Ardez;47933”]
Explosives clear away Red Eyes smoke and Stokers Molotov. [/quote]

They do? Glad to know this, since I intend to unlock Red Eye on spot it’s release day… (and quite possibly Stoker too.)


(XavienX) #15

I believe previous it was a longer range but monodirectional sensor. This is opposite of Vasilli who has a short range omnidirectional sensor. That may be different or I could very easily be wrong.[/quote]

Watching WTSFM’s vid on her motion sensor, you could see thru it, there was a camera. And when the enemy destroyed it, it flashes the people around it, like a flash grenade.


(Nail) #16

Aimee had a camera, not a sensor, she could explode it at will, was not sticky before, hope it will be


(debonairRogue) #17

[quote=“sinKrin;47960”]As far as I’m aware, Vasilli is the only merc who can kill two mercs at the same time with his gun. Maybe three if you’re very lucky?

If I’m playing as Vasilli my main objective is covering my team and taking out any enemy medics as soon as I can. The machine pistol is a great sidearm for when you want to get in close.[/quote]

I got two collats on the same day in two different matches.
doesn’t mean I actually tried too. usually you focus on getting one target and the other one just happens to be there


(bumbertyr) #18

i will say vaselli’s sniper needs some improvement.
This games pride and joy is being a skill based fps game, yet this game has the easiest sniper physics i’ve ever come across in a game, the only hard part is getting used to how straight the sniper actually shoots.

Also if this game isn’t for scrubs, why are semi’s a thing O.O


(Jojack) #19

Along with what should be providing recon (currently Phantom can’t do this except for manually) it should be a “pick” class. The caveat, though, should be in order to do it well it should require a high skill floor. Meaning, you have to be pretty good to pull it off, but when you do it’s extremely powerful.

Vassili’s design pulls this off perfectly in my opinion. Most Vassili’s hurt their own team by contributing nothing but a few random kills. A good Vassili, though, can absolutely give his team a massive advantage.

The problem with Phantom currently, and I’m afraid RedEye too, is that it requires very little skill to pull off a good multi-“pick” per spawn wave.

A “picking” class is always going to be annoying even when designed well as evidenced by Vassili. However, by making a high skill floor to be effective, it can be reigned into acceptable levels.