lethality of weapons

[Volcano]

What was it in ET 6 shots to gib?

[warbie]

[QUOTE=Valdez;419011]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghOS0HNGqnE

after watching this video of et, it seems to me the TTK was quite a bit faster in ET than DB. Obviously this is a frag video, but I think you can still determine which game has faster TTK.

Also from 6:40 to 6:47, he kills someone then gibs and kills 2 more guys with the same clip. We need to get that going in DB, currently you would kill the first guy and gib him then be out of ammo.
http://youtu.be/ghOS0HNGqnE?t=6m41s[/QUOTE]

Agreed. I’m pretty sure gib speed and reviving immunity too are going to be addressed as currently they’re not really working.

Excellent video btw.

[Apoc]

When you play its quite clear what the difference between etqw/rtcw and db is in terms of lethality.

Db feels more similar to cod, in that shooting to the chest or lower body only takes fractionally longer to kill than to shoot at the head, this i believe is purely due to the spread/ bloom as inferno said. Since i believe i heard someone from SD post somewhere saying the headshot multiplayer is similar to previous games. Because of that, it is clear that even when shooting at the head, alot of shots are hitting the body.
Similarly, shooting to the body means some shots hit the head, purely from the spread increase over time. Which makes everyone die around the same time regardless of where they aim (becomes more about tracking the player, than tracking a players head).

In etqw killing someone could take an entire clip if you only shot their lower body. It could take half a clip if you shot the body, or 3-4 bullets if you tracked the head. Very rarely could people “accidentally” hit 3-4 headshot kills, making all kills skill dependent. It gave scope for people to kill multiple opponents but only if you had the skill and positioning to pull it off.

[Rex]

[QUOTE=tokamak;418946]So when everyone is saying they die too fast then that means we all suck? How does this work?

I must say that constantly tying someone’s points to his supposed skill level isn’t really constructive. Disregarding that some might find it insulting, it’s essentially nothing more than an ad hominem.

Besides, people don’t just say they die too fast, they also say that they kill too fast.

Then, lastly, the lethality in this game absolutely needs to be discussed alongside the mobility and accuracy of the game. These three points can not considered in independently from each other.

Then actually lastly, making your own thread on an already existing subject is REALLY detrimental to the integrity of a board. It completely ruins the potential for having a constructive on-going debate on the same subject. Once people feel that the only way to have their points being read and adressed is to make a new topic then the forum starts being flooded with new posts, old discussions sink to the next page faster and before we know it we have really shouty and superficial discussions that last a few days before the next guy makes a new thread on the same subject.[/QUOTE]

I totally agree with you.

[QUOTE=Valdez;418908]I have noticed a lot of people say you die too fast and that the damage of guns is too much. I do not agree with this at all, coming from rtcw where I thought the gun play was perfect, it would take about 7-9 bullets to take an enemy down but in dirty bomb its more like 15 bullets. These numbers could be off and obviously with headshots you can take a guy down faster. my point is you died a lot faster in rtcw/et than you do in dirty bomb. Obviously dirty bomb is not rtcw/et, but then again why not model the gun fights after a game that did it perfect??? for a reference you can look at any rtcw or et youtube video and see what I am saying.

Side note, if you increased the damage of the guns then you could actually take down multiple enemies. The way the lethality is right now you would be very lucky to take down 2 guys.

If you currently feel as though you are dying too fast in DB, it might be directly related to the skill level of your opponent. A lot of the testers are serious fps players with a history of competing at the top level. Make sure you take this into consideration.

In this post I am referring to medics/field-ops/engineers for dirty bomb not the soldier.[/QUOTE]

I disagree here. You die by far to fast compared to ET. Spread is awfully high compared to ET or QW. Good aim isn’t rewarding neither the movement.
It is also not the skill level (lol at this point), it is just the game!

[Evil-Doer]

You deff. do not die quicker in DB than in ET. You could kill in 2 bullets in ET. Here it takes minimum of 3 with the highest powered weapons.

[Ashog]

Yeah, agree with Apoc. I personally think the issue lies in two things:

ROF is slightly too high. There is no need to measure TTK or something - just listen to the rate of shots and compare the rhythm. ROF is definitely higher than etqw/ET.

The damage to body is too high, when compared to headshot damage. As Apoc said, the HS damage might be close or same as in previous games, but body shots are too lethal, which in combination with slightly high ROF drastically reduces the 1vs1 fight time.

This in turn makes the game often smell like COD or some other crap, which has nothing to do with Enemy Territories gameplay.

In addition, the unperfected dodgeability and speed of side movement and accelleration, plus bloom and freezing on damage (or has it been removed already?) make things even worse.

The effects are all aliased and it is really hard to pinpoint the reason why the game doesnt yet feel quite right, but this needs to be done. Of course one might blame spread and stuff, but I would suggest not to rush with conclusions and test the effects one by one. I suggest that the ROF should be decreased slightly (why, exactly to ETQW ROF, why not) and the body damage should be decreased somewhat to feel the difference to headshots. This body damage part will be imho clearly making a diffirence, I am sure people will like the effect. After that is tested, one could concentrate on movement and spread fine-tuning.

[Breo]

just listen to the rate of shots and compare the rhythm. ROF is definitely higher than etqw/ET.

Some weapons sounds faster then they actually are, because the sound effects doesn’t match the amount of fired bullets.

[Ashog]

oh? well, anyways, you got the rest of the idea

[Reacto]

I strongly feel that the rof and gradual spread increase are the leading reasons why most of the guns feel the same, mostly in hipfire. There’s little feeling of uniqueness to be found when the system itself essentially prevents them from gaining any sort of individuality.

I think another of the main reasons that the guns feel so similar is that there’s very little gun animations when it comes to firing. It feels like the guns are very static, maybe expect for the soldier2 wep2 gun which feels a bit more alive. A lot of the guns do have a very “meh” feeling to them though, and feels really weak compared to what they could have been. This is hopefully something that will come later though. The sound itself also sounds very vague on a lot of the guns.

[tokamak]

Normally you would need to play the game to have opinions on such topics.

I acknowledge that the amount of time I spent on DB is currently lacking. This is mainly because right now I don’t have access to a PC that can run it well. I would have more access if the sessions ran at different times during the day though, so that steam initiative is a great idea.

Still, the game is currently in such a stage that it doesn’t really need extensive playtesting to understand the strengths and flaws. New players aren’t going to give this game any more time than I already did to see whether or not they like it. If they like it they’ll stay, but if it takes them more than a couple of matches to appreciate the game then they simply won’t appreciate it at all and quit. In fact, I’d say that I currently disagree with the the current state of the gunplay to such an extend that it’s hard to notice anything else. This is of course not an excuse to play less, but all I’m saying is that the value of continuously playing the same iteration of the game drastically declines per minute.

Right now the two elements that are most jarring are the high lethality combined with the high mobility, this makes the fights frantic and increases the element of chance. Some people equate high speed and high lethality with skill. In this case ‘skill’ would be defined as twitch reflexes. That’s fair! Counterstrike got big through this. They then proceed to draw back on older games, but that’s a false analogy as older games actually have low lethality combined with high mobility and accuracy.

Bah it takes too many words to explain. Here’s a table I quickly made:

Currently DB is a twitch shooter, very much like CS but with even higher mobility. CS gets away with this because it works in very small maps where half the players won’t survive the first minute of the round and the rest of the round is duked out between the survivors. All in all a round roughly lasts 3 minutes and then it’s rinse repeat.

DB doesn’t have this and has twenty minutes of people being all over the place, running into each other, whoever shoots first wins. That’s the way to be successful and it takes some skill but mostly it makes the kills as well as the deaths feel undeserved. And there’s no greater way of frustrating a player and taking any satisfaction out of the game than by making kills feel undeserved. A game shouldn’t feel like a repeatedly flipping coins.

I’m more of a proponent of the SWAT style shooter. This means drastically lowering the mobility. This would make the game feel more like R6 and QW. Yes, QW had fast movement but relative to the huge maps and rather large indoor confinements the mobility was slow.

I think this style fits the mission/class based shooter better because it makes spatial control more relevant. And in the end, that’s what the entire point of fighting over objectives is.

[Valdez]

I can appreciate your pov tokamak, but at the same time we are not going to agree. Seems like we are looking for two totally different games.

After thinking about this subject on TTK a little more, I have come to the conclusion that the problem has nothing to do with dmg or rof, which I currently think are pretty good. The whole problem right now with the TTK is the bloom (The faster you shoot, the more your bullets stray from the center of your reticle). I think this is why some people think the TTK is too fast and some think the TTK is too slow. If you land the first 3-4 shots you can take a guy down, but after that the bloom decreases accuracy way too much. Again, basically you either rock the guy in the first part of the fight or you could end up using the entire clip on him.

People may have already said this.

[Reacto]

I think they need to take a look at what happens when you’re getting shot at. Sometimes it feels so stuttery and weird that it makes it incredibly frustrating. If you’ve ever ran around a corner meeting a turret right next to you, you’ll know what I mean.

Also, tokamak, high accuracy on the move in CS? Maybe if you shoot one and one bullet, but still.

[DarkangelUK]

Ok I thought it was about time we brought some context to the TTK scenario. I jumped on DB, RtCW, ET and ETQW and calculated the time it takes to empty a clip… this should bring a little more clarity to the TTK window we’re seeing.

DB 3.3 secs with 30 clip
RtCW 3.3 secs with 32 clip
W:ET 4.5 secs with 30 clip
ETQW 4.5 secs with 30 shots used (GDF have 40 clip and strogg 120)

There’s the numbers… postulate away as you will. What I glean from that…

I felt I can get more kills per clip with RtCW than I could with DB… higher damage per bullet and/or less spread at mid+ range?
W:ET takes longer to empty a clip and I feel I could get more kills per clip with that… again higher damage per bullet and less spread at mid range. Same thought echo’s with ETQW.

[warbie]

Is that with the medic gun, Darkangel?

I think it’s the spread that needs addressing first. At mid range the guns feel too random and ineffective, and up close the large firing cone turns fights into a bit of a spammy headshot lottery.

Some extra crosshair options would help in this too.

[tokamak]

Cheers Darkangel, very helpful.

Though the guns indeed need more specifying. The Assault’s medium, the Medic gun and the Field Ops gun are the ones that are most interesting.

Also, tokamak, high accuracy on the move in CS? Maybe if you shoot one and one bullet, but still.

The scope of genres in that table is huge. Relative to other games CS is extremely accurate on the move. In R6 on the move you’re not going to hit a barn door while running up against it.

[QUOTE=Valdez;419146]I can appreciate your pov tokamak, but at the same time we are not going to agree. Seems like we are looking for two totally different games.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah I think we do. Still I think the aspect I value the most, spatial control, is really insignificant in DB’s current build.

[DarkangelUK]

Here’s some more context to add to the discussion. I tried to grab some spread screenshots from each game from a mid distance… I would stand roughly 10+m away from the wall and fire without adjusting my mouse at all… the results were interesting.

First of all we’ll do ET spread. I started with the standard shooting at the wall then I did shooting with the crouch modifier, I moved in closer to get the screenshot but I shot from further away.

Looks like there’s practically 0 spread when shooting when crouched, however hip fire spread seems quite larger… larger than I would have thought.

Next we’ll look at RtCW, again the same scenario of hip fire and crouch shooting

The results seem similar to ET even with the 1 sec less time it takes to empty a clip, this suggests that the bloom hits its peak quite quickly. Again crouch spread seems to be practically 0.

Now we’ll look at ETQW… and this one was the eye opener for me. For this I did the test with the standard Assault rile and also with the machine pistol as well.

Not only is there a decent amount of spread, but there’s also a wee bit of upward kick that you need to adjust for as well. Look at the machine pistol shots, it’s practically a straight line up the wall with the ADS in play.

This is the 1st lot of DB guns, this includes engineer and Soldier 1’s main gun… again I moved forward to get a better screenshot but I was shooting from further back.

Like ETQW, ADS has some upward shooting to account for but the spread is pretty small. As for hip fire… looks to me like there’s less spread than there is in ET and RtCW.

Last DB shot was with the Soldier 1’s alt big beast of a gun and the medic SMG.

With soldier 1’s 2nd gun, well **** that’s just a spray and pray affair with that one… when using ADS with that gun you have a much tighter spread but more upward kick to account for. The medics gun looks to me to have the least spread of the lot when firing from the hip… when firing from ADS there really doesn’t look like much of a difference except a more predictive spread.

So what I can see is that ET and RtCW had pretty wide spread when hip firing compared to DB, but the crouch modifier was a whole different world… 0 spread and 0 kick meant your gun turned into a point and click adventure. ETQW was the big eye opener, quite a large spread plus the added upward kick that had to be taken into account and adjusted for. ADS in ETQW did tighten the spread a bit, but nothing compared to ET/RtCW.

None of this takes into account the spread when moving, this was all done while standing still. If anyone wants to get movement spread in there then feel free… I cba

[Kinjal]

I did not bother to read anything you said. Normally you would need to play the game to have opinions on such topics.

Testing is old men talking and young men playing

[warbie]

Testing is old men talking and young men playing

Nice

10 char

[tokamak]

Cheers for the screens!

None of this takes into account the spread when moving, this was all done while standing still. If anyone wants to get movement spread in there then feel free… I cba

Yeah that’s just impossible to get accurate screenshots.

[shirosae]

Okay, since people are shooting numbers around…

[table=“width: 800”]

Class
Weapon
Capacity (Shots)
Magazine empty time (s)
Fire Rate (Shots/s)
Time for 2 shots (s)
Time for 3 shots (s)


Soldier1
Primary
30
3
10
0.1
0.2



Secondary
70
7
10
0.1
0.2


Soldier2
Primary
35
3
11.67
0.09
0.17



Secondary
50
6
8.3
0.12
0.24


Medic1
Primary
30
3.5
8.57
0.12
0.23


Eng1
Secondary
30
3
10
0.1
0.2


Eng2
Primary
30
3
10
0.1
0.2


Fops1
Primary
25
3
8.33
0.12
0.24


Fops2
Primary
30
3
10
0.1
0.2


Cov1
Secondary
30
3
10
0.1
0.2


ETQW
AR
40
5.5
7.27
0.138
0.275


ETQW
MP
20
3
6.67
0.15
0.3

[/table]

This is some research I did before the Eng2 MP5-alike got a reduced ROF. I timed it using the in-game timer, so I wouldn’t expect anything to be much more accurate than half a second.

Most guns seem to kill in 3 hits from 100HP, and 2 hits from 50HP. Soldiers obviously get an extra headshot at 110HP from at least some of these guns.

My thoughts: First shot, 100ms delay, second shot, 100ms delay, third shot and a kill after 200ms from 100HP if you get lucky with the spread or are scoping and get the right angle/position/enemy movement.

If you don’t get lucky and you need to keep firing*, your spread quickly blooms so large that you might need 15 bullets to put someone down, so about 1.4 seconds assuming your aim is good enough to keep them in the cone of fire and the distribution of shots is flat and blah other stuff I have to guess right now.

That’s a pretty wide spread of values right there - 200ms to 1400ms?#

In contrast ETQWpro was generally fine with this, I figure because the spread bloomed so much less that the fire was much more consistent. This is why I wanted to try DB with a ROF reduced by about ~10%, and with the bloom on sustained fire saturating at a lower value much earlier. I didn’t want to put up numbers, because we were supposed to be ‘gut instinct’-ing it all.

*Or if you need to engage a second target rapidly after you get lucky with your first.

#Since I can hear it coming: Yes, I did say that fights are too short. No, I don’t think all fights should last 200ms. I think that by reducing the ROF a bit you increase the distance players can move between each shot, increasing the minimum kill time by a bit. By reducing the bloom on sustained fire, you reduce the upper bound too, so you bring the range to something more like 350-1000ms. Or whatever works in practice, I just think 200ms is too short and 1400ms too long and both kind of frustrating.