Knowing is Half the Battle (Class Recognition)

[Chris2]

Would you qualify Brink’s handling of classes (no discernable visual differentiation) a game-breaker, or just a nuisance (in what seems like a really long list of)?

A nuisance most certainly, if it was a game breaker most of us wouldn’t be hear talking about it, we would be playing another game or something

I was going to refrain for posting the following as I’m crap at explaining things but DA’s post in another thread prompted me:

So we’ve all can agree that it is possible to identify a class, just that it takes a bit of observation. Would you agree to in order to observe effectively you need to step back momentarily and take in what’s happening in front of your eyes and wait for these give away signs?

So, lets put this into a scenario, Container City first objective. You’re on defense defending (duh) the gate and lets say you spot 6 guys coming out of the main spawn exit. So far they haven’t gave away any tell tale signs of which class they are, you start shooting at will.

As they take damage you spot the medics as they try to give health buffs and/or revives great yeah? Well no because they already have done their job by giving out revives and health, it’s a bit late, your been reactive now rather than proactive, if you knew straight away as they came out you could have started targeting those medics so that they would have either died or use their health buffs on themselves rather than their team mates.

Anyway, you manage to hold them back a short while near their spawn, suddenly 3 guys charge for the gate, erm who to shoot? If you fire indiscriminately you’re going to draw attention to yourself and 3 against 1 isn’t going to last long in your favor. (I assume here rest of your team are spawn camping :p) You hold back a moment to wait for a guy to whip out an explosive charge, bingo we have our relevant target, you start shooting but by now he’s already starting planting the objective, if you’re lucky you will kill him but due to his close proximity to the objective a quick revive and hes back on his feet planting again whilst you have the other 2 raining down bullets on you. Again you are been reactive rather than proactive.

If you had known who the soldier was much earlier you could have lobbed a nade into that group, momentarily disorientating them and took out the solider and gave your team a chance to fall back and help you out.

The differing of opinions on this matter maybe down to differing preferences of play style perhaps?

[Spendlove]

Chris. Maybe SD could have server settings option of “competitive” which puts your character in a set costume depending on class which is decided by the server owner? Would that be harder expensive to implement? Anyone know? Also add a new filter so competition settings can be ignored or preferred as desired by the player.

If they are altering spread perhaps this could be implemented too?

But it might not be possible or affordable.

Keeps everyone happy.

[Chris2]

You mean like this? http://www.splashdamage.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27741

I’m not sure how hard it would be but if the SDK was available I’m pretty sure something along those lines would have been added by now by the community.

[Spendlove]

[QUOTE=.Chris.;370697]You mean like this? http://www.splashdamage.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27741

I’m not sure how hard it would be but if the SDK was available I’m pretty sure something along those lines would have been added by now by the community.[/QUOTE]

As long as servers not running vanilla Brink could be filtered out I’m ok. But we have all seen how crazy the servers went in Wolf ET with mods and the filters simply did not work in Left 4 Dead.

[Chris2]

Ideally it would be part of a bigger mod that could be filtered out.

[tokamak]

[QUOTE=neg0ne;370212]You can´t remember 8 different outfits ???
[/QUOTE]

Well I can remember them, it’s just that they’re harder to tell apart because THEY’RE ALL ORANGE.

If I could recognise individual players on a glimpse then it opens up a whole new game, it would turn into a whole new game where you needed to figure out the guy’s class, keep a tab on him and keep the risk that he might have changed class. But you don’t need to bother with that now.

[Jimmy_James]

I can quote all of the hilarious crap posted by the Brink “hardcore” club but it would take FOREVER! Just Wolfnemesis ridiculous crap would take about 300 quotes of garbage.

Funny, because I was only quoting from posts to THIS THREAD. Good luck with your ill-conceived crusade of cardboard extremism.

Fine, let me. The obvious difference is when one side is trying to debate with some actual facts and experience and the other has to repeat a strawman because they have none to call upon. When they there’s just name calling flying like casual and troll, there’s little difference.

Interesting, because the quotes I posted don’t contain any actual facts. People are funny.

Get it now? I’m gonna guess probably not.

Remember, deep breaths man, deep breaths. We don’t want you having an aneurism over a video game now, do we.

Since when did spray and pray become tactical? I guess you can go with the view that you can use enemy positioning and their current actions to determine who is what, and what the best target is to go for 1st, but the time it takes to process such little information combined with the spread makes thinking a negative action… so spray and pray it is then.

Wait, “the time it takes to process such little information”!!! Really? I mean, I don’t want to flame you and… argh! It’s so hard not to!

A nuisance most certainly, if it was a game breaker most of us wouldn’t be hear talking about it, we would be playing another game or something

I personally find it strange that so many people that “gave up” on Brink still post to these forums. Any idea why?

Chris. Maybe SD could have server settings option of “competitive” which puts your character in a set costume depending on class which is decided by the server owner?

I actually think this is a brilliant idea! Good stuff.

[QUOTE=tokamak;370740]Well I can remember them, it’s just that they’re harder to tell apart because THEY’RE ALL ORANGE.

If I could recognise individual players on a glimpse then it opens up a whole new game, it would turn into a whole new game where you needed to figure out the guy’s class, keep a tab on him and keep the risk that he might have changed class. But you don’t need to bother with that now.[/QUOTE]
Just curious, what platform are you playing on, because I do not experience this “orange” problem on the PC? I can recognize characters at a glimpse but perhaps it’s due to my resolution/graphics settings?

-JJ

[thesuzukimethod]

If I could recognise individual players on a glimpse then it opens up a whole new game, it would turn into a whole new game where you needed to figure out the guy’s class, keep a tab on him and keep the risk that he might have changed class.

I think this happens to a certain degree (well, it does for me, at least…but as i posted previously, i’m very visually oriented) - moreso in the smaller matches that I tend to prefer (since 5 opponents is easier to keep track of than 8)…the biggest problem i have is when opponents switch class mid match, but like you mention, that’s part of the game…and indeed, in the smaller matches, the frequent class switchers are often switching to objective class, which means staying keyed in on them is productive.

but to the point of keeping track of 8… it’s not always about keeping track of all 8…if there’s a heavy medic that is constantly at the back lines keeping the team moving forward, it’s not hard to zero in on them. outfit + body type + classID over their head is a pretty complete set of visual clues…and if you add in TF’s original thread intent…are there any behaviors that help serve as a 4th clue?..i think this adds something complex and dynamic (and fun) to the game.

Maybe i am just an bumbling idiot, blissful in my own ignorance, with no right to an opinion since i’ve never played a game with class archetypes before…but it seems this ship has sailed - they made a choice for Brink, and it is what it is…

so

back to TF’'s original thread topic (please?)

what (if any) sort of behaviors help us further discern class type beyond the outfit + body type + class ID visual clues that are already present?

[wolfnemesis75]

Just shoot somebody.
Anybody.
Leave none alive!
We are on show here.
If you can’t get it done,
cut your losses and pull out.

[DarkangelUK]

[QUOTE=Jimmy James;370828]
Wait, “the time it takes to process such little information”!!! Really? I mean, I don’t want to flame you and… argh! It’s so hard not to![/QUOTE]

What exactly are you going to flame exactly? I don’t want the spray and pray game, it’s mindless nonsense… i want to implement a tactic when I come across a group of enemies instead of ‘go for the closest and hope he’s the right choice’.

You come into this room andmeet this group, who do you go for and why?

You get sprung by these guys, who would you take out and why?

Which instantaneous tell-tale signs are you using to make your choice… or are you purely going for the closest one or the one that has his back to you? If the enemy are any good what so ever, you don’t have time to examine the situation and read for very LITTLE info is being given away by randomness.

Sure for aesthetics it’s fine, but gameplay wise it makes random spraying the norm and throws tactics out the window. Give me a mind-game and thoughtful, tactical assault over dress up anyway of the week.

[Jimmy_James]

What exactly are you going to flame exactly?

I just find it ironic that you are unwilling to take the time to process such little information. Doesn’t seem like something you would say based on your other posts that I’ve seen. Maybe you didn’t quite mean it that way?

-JJ

EDIT ( I should probably read the whole post before replying):

[QUOTE=DarkangelUK;370861]
You come into this room andmeet this group, who do you go for and why?[/QUOTE]
I take out anyone in the room where the main objective is, regardless of class. Then I target medics.

[QUOTE=DarkangelUK;370861]
You get sprung by these guys, who would you take out and why?[/QUOTE]
Definitely take out the heavies first since they can dish out the most damage the fastest.

[BioSnark]

Interesting, because the quotes I posted don’t contain any actual facts. People are funny.

Then read the third line of what you’re quoting.

[Jimmy_James]

Then read the third line of what you’re quoting.

Why don’t you read it and tell me what you see?

-JJ

[DarkangelUK]

[QUOTE=Jimmy James;370863]I just find it ironic that you are unwilling to take the time to process such little information. Doesn’t seem like something you would say based on your other posts that I’ve seen. Maybe you didn’t quite mean it that way?

-JJ[/QUOTE]

I never said unwilling at all, I said that those who actually analyze the situation and determine the most lethal kill to stunt the enemies progression will be penalized by a few bullets to the face as there are no glance indicators. As Chris said, any gamer worth his salt knows that there are preferred targets that you want to be taking out in any given situation to deal the biggest blow to the enemy… what’s the point in taking out a soldier when there’s a medic right beside him ready to revive him? What’s the point in going for the medic and potentially leaving the operative alive when he’s about to complete the hack objective? In most instances you want to be going for the medic, so when your team mates finish off the others, there’s no one left to revive them all. Near an objective you want take out the medic, or the objective class if he’s in mid objective build/disarm.

Looking at the 2 screenshots I linked, there’s absolutely no trigger there to be pro-active if you get the jump on them, as Chris said, you need to be reactive if you want your kill to count… anything beyond that is spray and pray… something I thought all the Brink players considered a CoD mindset that didn’t belong here.

[wolfnemesis75]

Knowing is Half the Battle.
But killing everyone and anyone is all the battle.

[AmishWarMachine]

[QUOTE=DarkangelUK;370861]You come into this room andmeet this group, who do you go for and why?

You get sprung by these guys, who would you take out and why?[/QUOTE]
Upon first contact, I cannot argue that in the heat of battle it wouldn’t be immediately obvious who was what. (I would put some money on the big fatty in your second screenshot being a soldier, though engineer is almost as likely)

Thereafter, however, it’s pretty easy.

It’s rare, in my experience, that more than 1 or 2 (out of 8) players on a side change class during a match, or at most between objectives. So one’s memory can certainly be tagged as the most important asset in regards to readily identifying the enemy.

Like I’ve said before, I totally get how class-specific models makes it easier to identify, and therefor makes formulating strategies for how to tackle an enemy(s) quicker. But I was under the impression that the comp community didn’t want easy, because easy doesn’t take skill, and skill should be rewarded. (Not meaning any of this in an inflammatory way, just trying the understand the seeming contradictions to what I’m reading about this, and what I’ve read about before)

Either or, and like TSM posted, the ship has sailed. Water under the bridge. Spilled Milk. Pick your idiom.

The task at hand is now to make due with what we’ve got, and that necessitates identifying how classes tip their hand in-game.

[BioSnark]

Why don’t you read it and tell me what you see?

there’s no point in me bothering.

[quote=wolfnemesis75;370870]Knowing is Half the Battle.
But killing everyone and anyone is all the battle. [/quote]ET classes make tactix to ez so lets play tdm.

Like I’ve said before, I totally get how class-specific models makes it easier to identify, and therefor makes formulating strategies for how to tackle an enemy(s) quicker. But I was under the impression that the comp community didn’t want easy, because easy doesn’t take skill, and skill should be rewarded. (Not meaning any of this in an inflammatory way, just trying the understand the seeming contradictions to what I’m reading about this, and what I’ve read about before)

Problem is, it doesn’t just make tactics harder but less effective compared to spray and pray because the former costs time while the latter doesn’t.

The task at hand is now to make due with what we’ve got, and that necessitates identifying how classes tip their hand in-game.

This is true unless SD releases a SDK or fixes this based on feedback, here.

[Jimmy_James]

there’s no point in me bothering.

That seems to be your motto in life.

-JJ

[BioSnark]

Oh, don’t be a child.

[AmishWarMachine]

This is true unless SD releases a SDK or fixes this based on feedback, here.

And I am 1-million percent in favor of PC getting SDK, as it intrigues me what the end-users could create to add depth and variety to a game that I already love.

I’m crossing my fingers for you, but I have to draw the line at sacrificing virgins. Legal nightmare.