Kira secondary?

(ProfPlump) #21

[quote=“Apofenas;22746”]Hello.

I used to think Arty is just a mix of Skyhammer and Kira that isn’t worth getting if you already bought Kira. Well now it looks like it’s Kira who is obselite by Arty. Arty strikes and Orbital laser seem to have good and bad sides compare to each other, but eventually you get similiar outcome from them.

In doors these 2 mercs have no access to abilities so all what’s left is 120 hp merc and fast 90 hp merc with exactly the same weapons. Same burst rfles, same pistols. Assuming Kira costs 20k more…

Now we got to the point.

Why not give Kira smgs or stronger pistols? Like Tolen MP, Empire-9 or Smjüth & Whetsman? If i’m not mistaken in Scrubs trailer Kira had smg weapon. Although it looks more like SMG-9.[/quote]

I don’t think it would be too overpowered to give her some better sidearms, but to be honest she’s perfectly usable without her laser anyway. Compared to Arty, she’s:
A) a smaller target,
B) can strafe side to side faster, making her harder to hit,
C) she can move faster which comes in incredibly handy when trying to outflank your opponents, when you need to rush to get to/carry an objective, or even when you’re just trying to rush to a recently downed opponent to gib them before a nearby medic can revive them and
D) can run away, escape and re-heal if she needs to, whereas if Arty gets down to low health and needs to retreat, he will get caught by faster mercs such as Proxy, Aura, Sparks and Kira herself. Kira on the other hand is much harder to catch - only two mercs can actually run faster than her (and plus if the Kira is smart enough, she can place an ammo station down behind her to create an extra obstacle for her pursuer to worry about, which Arty can’t do).

An extra 33% HP is very useful, but it’s not the only thing that factors into a merc’s combat ability. Don’t write off the smaller mercs.

(Just for an example, the fact that a Proxy with a Hochfir is a pretty fair match for a Sawbonez with a Crotzni is an example of how being smaller and lighter is not necessarily a disadvantage)

If anything, I’d say that Arty is underpowered in comparison to Kira, not the other way around.

(Sinsanatis) #22

Yay!

Ew.[/quote]

This is just an example. Can be DE 50 since only Skyhammer has it in his basic loadout.[/quote]

Even worse. I don’t really understand why Fletcher, Proxy and Vassili get those heavy handguns coupled with machine pistols, they’re not nearly as reliable as sidearms considering the greatly inferior magazine efficiency.[/quote]

Because Machine Pistols are too powerful is the problem, they really didn’t need the range nerf, just a capacity nerf since they are secondary weapons.[/quote]

I disagree, I think that heavy handguns sucking is the problem. They are all extremely unreliable even compared to the Selbstadt and M9, let alone the machine pistols.[/quote]

@Dawnrazor yeah they are barely suitable for cqc. more meant for arm length close. i mean really, they are secondaries. u switch to them for a reason, because of reliability. and the revolvers and the DE arent really that reliable as secondaries, being last resorts(most of the time) the DE is pretty good in its ADS negating a lot of the recoil, but the revolvers on the other hand, the recoil makes the barrel block the whole body of ur target even aiming at the legs.

(Sinsanatis) #23

[quote=“ProfPlump;138377”][quote=“Apofenas;22746”]Hello.

I used to think Arty is just a mix of Skyhammer and Kira that isn’t worth getting if you already bought Kira. Well now it looks like it’s Kira who is obselite by Arty. Arty strikes and Orbital laser seem to have good and bad sides compare to each other, but eventually you get similiar outcome from them.

In doors these 2 mercs have no access to abilities so all what’s left is 120 hp merc and fast 90 hp merc with exactly the same weapons. Same burst rfles, same pistols. Assuming Kira costs 20k more…

Now we got to the point.

Why not give Kira smgs or stronger pistols? Like Tolen MP, Empire-9 or Smjüth & Whetsman? If i’m not mistaken in Scrubs trailer Kira had smg weapon. Although it looks more like SMG-9.[/quote]

I don’t think it would be too overpowered to give her some better sidearms, but to be honest she’s perfectly usable without her laser anyway. Compared to Arty, she’s:
A) a smaller target,
B) can strafe side to side faster, making her harder to hit,
C) she can move faster which comes in incredibly handy when trying to outflank your opponents, when you need to rush to get to/carry an objective, or even when you’re just trying to rush to a recently downed opponent to gib them before a nearby medic can revive them and
D) can run away, escape and re-heal if she needs to, whereas if Arty gets down to low health and needs to retreat, he will get caught by faster mercs such as Proxy, Aura, Sparks and Kira herself. Kira on the other hand is much harder to catch - only two mercs can actually run faster than her (and plus if the Kira is smart enough, she can place an ammo station down behind her to create an extra obstacle for her pursuer to worry about, which Arty can’t do).

An extra 33% HP is very useful, but it’s not the only thing that factors into a merc’s combat ability. Don’t write off the smaller mercs.

(Just for an example, the fact that a Proxy with a Hochfir is a pretty fair match for a Sawbonez with a Crotzni is an example of how being smaller and lighter is not necessarily a disadvantage)

If anything, I’d say that Arty is underpowered in comparison to Kira, not the other way around.[/quote]

@ProfPlump well with all that, id rather just have proxy. the only thing indoor kira has over proxy is the hard-hitting weapons with more range

(Apofenas) #24

[quote=“ProfPlump;138377”]
I don’t think it would be too overpowered to give her some better sidearms, but to be honest she’s perfectly usable without her laser anyway. Compared to Arty, she’s:
A) a smaller target,
B) can strafe side to side faster, making her harder to hit,
C) she can move faster which comes in incredibly handy when trying to outflank your opponents, when you need to rush to get to/carry an objective, or even when you’re just trying to rush to a recently downed opponent to gib them before a nearby medic can revive them and
D) can run away, escape and re-heal if she needs to, whereas if Arty gets down to low health and needs to retreat, he will get caught by faster mercs such as Proxy, Aura, Sparks and Kira herself. Kira on the other hand is much harder to catch - only two mercs can actually run faster than her (and plus if the Kira is smart enough, she can place an ammo station down behind her to create an extra obstacle for her pursuer to worry about, which Arty can’t do).

An extra 33% HP is very useful, but it’s not the only thing that factors into a merc’s combat ability. Don’t write off the smaller mercs.

(Just for an example, the fact that a Proxy with a Hochfir is a pretty fair match for a Sawbonez with a Crotzni is an example of how being smaller and lighter is not necessarily a disadvantage)

If anything, I’d say that Arty is underpowered in comparison to Kira, not the other way around.[/quote]

Yes, you may dodge a lot of shots with Kira because of small size and fast speed… or may not. It’s more luck and skill based. HP is just more reliable. There are also weapons you wouldn’t easily dodge: shotguns and explosives. I remember free rotation with Sparks, Kira and Proxy. Naders and Fletchers were top score.

If you want to rush objective or outflank your opponents, why wouldn’t you take same Proxy or Sparks and get far better outcome? By suggesting to add machine pistols i aimed to buff exactly this kind of game play. So you could run fast with weapon ready and do better in close combat. May be having better machine pistol with Stark would make these loadouts more used compare to BR-16 with worse mp?

I also don’t think that Arty is underpowered compare to Kira. He is less risk, less reward merc compare to Kira who is more skill rewarding. But eventually i’d say he is better fire support merc than Kira.

(Dawnlazy) #25

[quote=“Apofenas;138406”][quote=“ProfPlump;138377”]
I don’t think it would be too overpowered to give her some better sidearms, but to be honest she’s perfectly usable without her laser anyway. Compared to Arty, she’s:
A) a smaller target,
B) can strafe side to side faster, making her harder to hit,
C) she can move faster which comes in incredibly handy when trying to outflank your opponents, when you need to rush to get to/carry an objective, or even when you’re just trying to rush to a recently downed opponent to gib them before a nearby medic can revive them and
D) can run away, escape and re-heal if she needs to, whereas if Arty gets down to low health and needs to retreat, he will get caught by faster mercs such as Proxy, Aura, Sparks and Kira herself. Kira on the other hand is much harder to catch - only two mercs can actually run faster than her (and plus if the Kira is smart enough, she can place an ammo station down behind her to create an extra obstacle for her pursuer to worry about, which Arty can’t do).

An extra 33% HP is very useful, but it’s not the only thing that factors into a merc’s combat ability. Don’t write off the smaller mercs.

(Just for an example, the fact that a Proxy with a Hochfir is a pretty fair match for a Sawbonez with a Crotzni is an example of how being smaller and lighter is not necessarily a disadvantage)

If anything, I’d say that Arty is underpowered in comparison to Kira, not the other way around.[/quote]

Yes, you may dodge a lot of shots with Kira because of small size and fast speed… or may not. It’s more luck and skill based. HP is just more reliable.[/quote]

Pretty much this, Kira can give amazing results in pubs but against really good players you will soon be really wishing you had that extra 30 HP.

(CCP115) #26

She’s fast, why are we even discussing this?

This is literally how SD balances their game.

(JJMAJR) #27

I’d like to return to the concept of having Kira use PDWs or something like that. The Blishlock actually can outgun the Stark at long range, which is a bonus I just recently learned of now.

Hey, why not have Kira use two different primaries per build? It would make wording weird as we’ll get something like S-BL4 or something. But it would still be quite cool, and the Blishlock is still better than a cruddy M9 in my experience.

Oh, and to go full weaboo, just give her katanas.

[quote=“CCP115;138646”]She’s fast, why are we even discussing this?

This is literally how SD balances their game.[/quote]
Sadly this is true. It’s also sad that men are the only things in armor suits that can reduce damage to the human body to 2/5.

Okay, enough ranting and shit.

PS: Weapons Kira currently uses: [spoiler]
BR-16
Stark
Dreiss

M9
Caulden
Selbstadt .40

Beckhill Combat Knife
Cricket Bat
Stilnotto Stiletto[/spoiler]
Arty has the same stuff. Again, low diversity…

If Sawbones could be upgraded to Rifleman and Kira down to Operative, that would make the fire support classes more diverse.

Shoot! I realized I wanted Stoker to have Operative gear, not Kira. Well, need bed time…

(Mr-Penguin) #28

[quote=“JJMAJR;138776”]I’d like to return to the concept of having Kira use PDWs or something like that. The Blishlock actually can outgun the Stark at long range, which is a bonus I just recently learned of now.

Hey, why not have Kira use two different primaries per build? It would make wording weird as we’ll get something like S-BL4 or something. But it would still be quite cool, and the Blishlock is still better than a cruddy M9 in my experience.

Oh, and to go full weaboo, just give her katanas.

[quote=“CCP115;138646”]She’s fast, why are we even discussing this?

This is literally how SD balances their game.[/quote]
Sadly this is true. It’s also sad that men are the only things in armor suits that can reduce damage to the human body to 2/5.

Okay, enough ranting and shit.

PS: Weapons Kira currently uses: [spoiler]
BR-16
Stark
Dreiss

M9
Caulden
Selbstadt .40

Beckhill Combat Knife
Cricket Bat
Stilnotto Stiletto[/spoiler]
Arty has the same stuff. Again, low diversity…

If Sawbones could be upgraded to Rifleman and Kira down to Operative, that would make the fire support classes more diverse.

Shoot! I realized I wanted Stoker to have Operative gear, not Kira. Well, need bed time…[/quote]

Double primaries are a horrible idea in my opinion, since your “secondary” becomes a weapon that can match a primary weapon. And if somebody with a Blish is out-gunning you at long range when you have a Stark… you’re doing something wrong, not the gun.

Giving Sawbonez assault rifles would screw balance over and make Phoenix obsolete. Kira’s kit and playstyle is designed around range and getting the first strike with BRs and her speed. Giving her SMGs would ruin that and the delicate balance of the Fire Support mercs.

(JJMAJR) #29

I meant for Stoker to have SMGs instead at first. I was so tired…

But yeah, I was the one using the Blishlock against a Stark player. Not the other way around. And all the shots are hitting, so it’s strange. The Blishlock has less damage dropoff than the other weapons, I guess?