Kills are strategic; K/DR is a vital statistic

[Jess_Alon]

[QUOTE=Steinernein;332665]
The only thing that really matters is team composition statistics (including weapon layout etc) and the only thing that matters is whether or not your team can win. Thus, the OP’s title is utterly misleading and a complete lie on top of that (how he can write it with a straight face is beyond me - he probably didn’t). [/QUOTE]

No. I’m sure he did write it with a straight face. Just like I can write about my own personal outlooks that are unpopular with the majority with a straight face. Because I have my own personal set of standards.

The guy truly believes you can find good players to play with by looking at their stats. But obviously that’s not always the case.

But maybe that’s the case with him. Maybe every player he’s played with that has good stats has been a solid player and it’s been a helpful way for him to find reliable players that play on his level. Because Frankie’s a good player.

You can’t very well project your personal experience onto the guy. Just because you have had experience with crappy stat padders doesn’t mean he has. But maybe you just go by word of mouth just like everyone else. Anyone with great stats is a stat padding douche and there’s nothing they can do to prove otherwise.

If you feel that way. Have fun with your life. But don’t project your issues on everyone else.

[kosh]

I’m ok with statpage as long as I’ll be able to choose my profile between private and public.

[Jess_Alon]

I’m ok with statpage as long as I’ll be able to choose my profile between private and public.

It’s not. If you play a match with me. Your name will show up and someone can view your stats after looking at my page. I know I’m not the most amazing player ever. But I don’t care who sees my stats because I want to see who I play with.

[FrankieGodskin]

Jess, you’re awesome. Thanks for all the things you’ve said about me. I enjoyed playing with you as well. It was a great example of how much fun everyone can have when like-minded, similarly-skilled players get together and just enjoy themselves. I’m swamped with Microeconomics and Corporate Finance assignments right now (should have got my B.S. 15 years ago, it’s a pain doing this in my mid-thirties), but I’ll be on again this week and hopefullly we can play again.

Looking through this thread, I’ve conceded a few points. I think what I didn’t consider carefully is that public K/DR stats could give some players incentive to be less aggressive capturing objectives and helping their team. For me, killing is a great asset to the team, and I’m either on the front lines or giving covering fire from the rear. I rack up a lot of kills and don’t die or get downed often, so seeing my K/DR would be beneficial. But since others don’t play the same way I do, I understand what some are saying.

At the same time, self-preservation is vital. If you’re DBNO or watching the respawn timer or running from your spawn back to the objective, you’re losing precious seconds that could be better spent on the front line. I truly believe that survivability and killing ability are important in any shooter, and that K/DR is one of many measurements which help define how good of a player you are.

[Jess_Alon]

[QUOTE=Frankie Godskin;332935]Jess, you’re awesome. Thanks for all the things you’ve said about me. I enjoyed playing with you as well. It was a great example of how much fun everyone can have when like-minded, similarly-skilled players get together and just enjoy themselves. I’m swamped with Microeconomics and Corporate Finance assignments right now (should have got my B.S. 15 years ago, it’s a pain doing this in my mid-thirties), but I’ll be on again this week and hopefullly we can play again.

Looking through this thread, I’ve conceded a few points. I think what I didn’t consider carefully is that public K/DR stats could give some players incentive to be less aggressive capturing objectives and helping their team. For me, killing is a great asset to the team, and I’m either on the front lines or giving covering fire from the rear. I rack up a lot of kills and don’t die or get downed often, so seeing my K/DR would be beneficial. But since others don’t play the same way I do, I understand what some are saying.

At the same time, self-preservation is vital. If you’re DBNO or watching the respawn timer or running from your spawn back to the objective, you’re losing precious seconds that could be better spent on the front line. I truly believe that survivability and killing ability are important in any shooter, and that K/DR is one of many measurements which help define how good of a player you are.[/QUOTE]

See I knew you weren’t one of those e-peen boosters. Haha.

[Rubbaduren]

K/D is important, like many other stats, including those that isn’t tracked. Do you have good players on your team, good enemies? How many of your kills are in important areas of the map? Theres a lot of factors that plays a part.

In my opinion, a K/D is good as long as its slightly above 1. When the K/D gets good above 2, you’re either a very good player, or you play more to stay alive than to complete an objective. I don’t think it’s hard to go 10-0 almost every single game in brink. Perhaps even 20-0. Because most people try to complete an objective. Even when people camp in this game, it’s usually close to an objective, a chokepoint, and they contribute in getting a win, or atleast try to. Most people that play brink knows what its about.

[suho]

Oh boy where should I start.

K/D ratio is totally and utterly unimportant in Brink. It is just a number, as is XP.
Is killing enemies important in Brink? Yes, certainly but it depends on the situation. It is not only a question of whom but also where to kill/gib enemy players.

Some people say staying alive is important. That is not always true and also depends on the situation. Example: You are playing Security and are being spawn camped on Container City. What you need to do is get weapon buffs and rush outside and not what most people do, sniping from your own spawn. Yes you will most certainly die in the process but that is what it takes to overcome that situation. You need to rush and take risks not slowly try to push.

One situation where kills are important: Last objective for Security on Shipyard. What needs to be done on that map is not easy for most people to get it seems. As security your way to the obj is very long wheras for resistance it is not. What you want to do as Security is pretend the enemy resistance from reaching your hackers. If your are not playing operative you need to keep the enemy from killing them and that means takign them out before they even reach the platform on whicvh your teammates are hacking away. So “spawncamping” the resistance rigth infront of that big ship of theirs is a very good and viable option.
The number kills that you can cue up is important here but also is the WHERE, namely infront of the obj from your perpective not behind! You want to keep the enemy from even getting to your hackers.
That situation is kindoff comparable to most mining laser missions from ET:QW (especially Salvage). There it was usually the other way round, defending Team was trying to defend behind the obj when it was vital to not let the enemy engineers even reach the obj.

Long story short: Kills are imporatant, but it is situational and also depends on your combat role. K/D ratio imporatant for winning a game? Sry to dissappoint you but no.

In ET:QW there were for example situations were you needed to rush in as obj class in order to just tap the obj before all the progress went back automatically. It was a suicide mission but it needed to be done.

[Rubbaduren]

[QUOTE=suho;332991]
K/D ratio is totally and utterly unimportant in Brink.[/QUOTE]

I disagree. As stated in other threads, the team with most kills usually wins. There are situations where you have to go on a suicide, but every objective gets easier to complete if theres no enemies preventing you from completing that objective. That beeing said, that doesn’t mean that the higher the K/D-rating, the better the player.

[Steinernein]

[QUOTE=Jess Alon;332709]No. I’m sure he did write it with a straight face. Just like I can write about my own personal outlooks that are unpopular with the majority with a straight face. Because I have my own personal set of standards.

The guy truly believes you can find good players to play with by looking at their stats. But obviously that’s not always the case.

But maybe that’s the case with him. Maybe every player he’s played with that has good stats has been a solid player and it’s been a helpful way for him to find reliable players that play on his level. Because Frankie’s a good player.

You can’t very well project your personal experience onto the guy. Just because you have had experience with crappy stat padders doesn’t mean he has. But maybe you just go by word of mouth just like everyone else. Anyone with great stats is a stat padding douche and there’s nothing they can do to prove otherwise.

If you feel that way. Have fun with your life. But don’t project your issues on everyone else.[/QUOTE]

Either I didn’t write with clarity or you simply misread me. Your entire post is utterly unnecessary considering my point or perhaps, more disappointingly so, non-responsive.

First and foremost, you sabotage your own argument by agreeing with me.

Secondly, there isn’t any projection going on here unless you’re going to reduce my thought to that in which case you do the same to yourself and everyone around you - a bit meaningless. I mean that saying that my reflection upon statistics is a projection of myself and of my experiences. So it really has no place in this discussion.

Thirdly, it’s really irrelevant whether or not he’s a good player. Stop sucking his e-epeen or at least posting irrelevant **** like that because I am obviously not questioning his skills (and why would I? Anyone who does realizes it serves no purpose here in a discussion about the validity of KDR).

Fourthly, you aren’t reading carefully enough nor are you paying attention to the other arguments ( I am probably guilty of that ) because the main point is that all these simple means of stats in game are all fundamentally flawed. Hence the ‘why the **** not ? Just include KDR since it’s just as bad/good/whatever as xp’ . The truth lies primarily outside of simple stat displays, that being said when I mean it lies primarily outside, I mean to say maybe 20% of player psychology is related to what stat is displayed the rest comes from preconceived notion and whatever else.

Lastly, I’ll recap my argument for the sake of clarity/retraction/editing:

1. There really isn’t enough to go on whether or not KDR helps or hurts, for some players it helps and for some it hurts therefore - as reckless as it seems - I recommend just adding it and perhaps it has something to do with the next line.

2. One statistic alone is not enough to determine who is a quality player and who isn’t ( a point you pretty much conceded on).

3. Currently, both KDR and XP displays are flawed if used to measure true/raw/whatever player performance. There are so many situations and arguments for and against, all of them valid within context. The question is do you have the context when you’re ****ing read the goddamn chart? The answer: No. You want to know how you’re doing in all actuality? Do it like they do it on the Discovery channel. ****ing recorded demos so you can see how the rest of your team is doing/acting (along with the enemy) including yourself. That way you get a CLEAR analysis of what’s going on in first person view, third person view, overall, and stats (lol@ fps view … SD)

4. In conclusion KDR is not a vital statistic by any means. Certainly there is some importance but context is more vital.

What the **** with the ‘projection’? And personal experience? Whatever.

[Steinernein]

I disagree. As stated in other threads, the team with most kills usually wins. There are situations where you have to go on a suicide, but every objective gets easier to complete if theres no enemies preventing you from completing that objective. That beeing said, that doesn’t mean that the higher the K/D-rating, the better the player.

Key words/phrases: usually , ‘that doesn’t mean’ that the higher the K/D-rating, the better’, ‘have to go suicide’.

So basically, you’re just pretty much saying it’s useless without context and because you don’t have a ****ing camera or a recording while looking at the stat boards you really have no context to which you can say: WELLZ GUY that playr r bad and that one r good.

You could make a snapshot judgment but be damned if you don’t realize that you should dig further. But I suppose it gives a false sense of security to some players at times.

[Jess_Alon]

What the **** with the ‘projection’? And personal experience? Whatever.

I will at a later time try to read that combative wall of text which you broke up into paragraphs very nicely. But until then all I can try to say is that I’m trying to be more empathetic lately and sadly probably doing the opposite in reality.

[V1cK_dB]

I disagree. As stated in other threads, the team with most kills usually wins. There are situations where you have to go on a suicide, but every objective gets easier to complete if theres no enemies preventing you from completing that objective. That beeing said, that doesn’t mean that the higher the K/D-rating, the better the player.

Totally and 100% agree. Can you win a game with less kills than the other team? Sure. But that depends by how many kills. If the k/d ratio on my team is bad…we will most likely lose. That is what I’ve noticed on the previous 10 games stats on the stats website anyway.

If your k/d is bad because you are an objective whore…then your not doing it right. You are supposed to get an objective but also kill people when you have to help the team around the objective not just blindly run into a guarded room dying over and over as the only soldier for example. How does that help anyone? People like using getting an objective as an excuse for terrible decision-making and horrific slayer skills. If you are the objective getting class on your team will your k/d be lower than the strict slayer on the team? Sure. Is it acceptable for your k/d to be under a .5? HELL NO! Can you have a 2.0 k/d ratio and still be a great team player. ABSOLUTELY.

Will showing k/d ratios all of a sudden make people stop trying to get objectives? I don’t think so. There were k/d ratios in RTCW and people still got objectives. You now get double xp for getting objectives so that is another incentive. If I notice a player has a high xp per match AND a good k/d ratio…I think I want that player on my team. I couldn’t care less about people having “e-peens” because as soon as we play against someone like that I would show them why they can put their e-peen back in their pants. Why are some kids so afraid? Is it that their k/d ratio would be bad? And yes, k/d ratios would be important in any shooter. Not the ultimate stat that would determine whether a player is better than another or not but a vital stat that in combination with stats like xp per match, accuracy, damage, objectives captured would paint a much better picture that the one we are getting right now.

[Kalbuth]

People thinking that killing efficiently isn’t going to make your objectives easier are crazy. Ofc, it’s even the center, most important action we all do in FPS!
Which doesn’t mean you should go against objectives to preserve your K/D
It means you must be efficient at killing when it’s needed, “when it’s needed” being like 90% of your game time, which is alot, don’t you think.

I don’t see how K/D indicator is going to hurt any more than XP indicator, tbh. It’s on the same level, and has the same reasons to be shown.
And I’m pretty sure I’d have an awefull, awefull K/D, that doesn’t mean it should be removed

[Steinernein]

I will at a later time try to read that combative wall of text which you broke up into paragraphs very nicely. But until then all I can try to say is that I’m trying to be more empathetic lately and sadly probably doing the opposite in reality.

No point. You won’t be able to refute it and have it be meaningful. All the **** here is already done and over with.

There is no evidence that KDR is a vital stat. There is no evidence that KDR negatively impacts play across the board. That’s all that can be concluded from this **** storm of a retarded post made by the OP.

It basically boils down to: Are the devs willing to add that feature in on all platforms? Is it worth the money? The answer is no because it’s nearly irrelevant and if it was it’s DEAD LAST on priority. PC users can just use the damn console command.

The only evidence people have supplied thus far are from anecdotes and from personal experience, and guess what? Both sides of this stupid argument have **** to hurl at each other based on personal experience. Is there anything USEFUL that comes out of this? No. And if we use logic/reasoning on the whole KDR debate what comes from it? It isn’t a vital stat but it is useful like any other tool, there are better ways to measure performance.

[FrankieGodskin]

Bumping this in response to the “skill” thread which recently surfaced.

[Hot-Wire]

I see this thread on every objective based FPS forum I go to. I agree to extent that KDR is important, since without the guy pumping out the KDR, no one will be stopping the enemy from preventing the objective players on your team from succeeding. With that said you can still win a match without ever firing a shot, as unrealistic it may be. … and if people are only focused on KDR, then sure you are spawn camping the enemy, but no one is doing the objective. You still lose in the end.

What I would say is that KDR is important, but that is only because there are several other factors around it to make it so. By itself it doesn’t mean too much.

[neg0ne]

I think there are some misunderstandings here.
When we Talk about kill / DEATH RATIO its obvious and claer that KILLING MATTERS.

Theres no question about that.

BUT, that doesn´t mean that K/D Ration matters !

A good K/D Ratio means to kill alot but die little. the second Part is what doesn´t fit into games like Brink.

why is that?

To complete Objectives you need to be willing to DIE

Making lots of frags is ok and may be even a very good job for the team but
avoiding to get killed brings you nowhere here.

SO:
The first part of K/D Ratio , killing enemies , is important but avoiding to get killed makes no sense at all in an objectivebsed team shooter like Brink.

Thats why K/D Ration is useless and would bring people to a wrong perspective ( wrong in terms Obj / team).

[tokamak]

The only problem right now is that the xp-rewards do not reflect the importance of a kill. They’re a lower value because SD feels people will kill ‘anyway’. And of course, while lower xp does not hold people back from doing an iunimportant job, it will eventually leave them feeling under-appreciated.

That said, K/D ratio is UTTERLY UTTERLY useless, not just useless but also counterproductive. There’s no value in staying alive in this game as long as there are more important objectives around. Even as a defender you may want to sacrifice yourself sometimes by killing a key class working on his objective. This means that there are enough cases where working to improve your K/D ratio will be detrimental to achieving victory.

A solution to this problem would be to introduce ‘key kills’. That would be a neat statistic. Every time you kill a class in close proximity to his relevant objective, you receive a ‘key kill’ (find a better word for it I get tired of this already). It may even be touted in the kill-stream with a different colour. At the end of the match, the player with the most key kills will be listed alongside the best classes etc.

You essentially disconnect kills of lesser importance from relevant kills. This way the players who enjoy racking up body-counts will have an incentive to pay attention to what’s going on and be an important asset to their team rather than just jerking their own ego with a COD mindset.

[tokamak]

[QUOTE=Kalbuth;333113]People thinking that killing efficiently isn’t going to make your objectives easier are crazy. Ofc, it’s even the center, most important action we all do in FPS!
Which doesn’t mean you should go against objectives to preserve your K/D[/QUOTE]

HAHA yeah right! Who’s going to stop someone from doing that? You just pinpointed the entire problem with this statistic yourself.

The only problem right now is that the xp-rewards do not reflect the importance of a kill. They’re a lower value because SD feels people will kill ‘anyway’. And of course, while lower xp does not hold people back from doing an iunimportant job, it will eventually leave them feeling under-appreciated.

That said, K/D ratio is UTTERLY UTTERLY useless, not just useless but also counterproductive. There’s no value in staying alive in this game as long as there are more important objectives around. Even as a defender you may want to sacrifice yourself sometimes by killing a key class working on his objective. This means that there are enough cases where working to improve your K/D ratio will be detrimental to achieving victory.

A solution to this problem would be to introduce ‘key kills’. That would be a neat statistic. Every time you kill a class in close proximity to his relevant objective, you receive a ‘key kill’ (find a better word for it I get tired of this already). It may even be touted in the kill-stream with a different colour. At the end of the match, the player with the most key kills will be listed alongside the best classes etc.

You essentially disconnect kills of lesser importance from relevant kills. This way the players who enjoy racking up body-counts will have an incentive to pay attention to what’s going on and be an important asset to their team rather than just jerking their own ego with a COD mindset.

[FROST1]

[QUOTE=neg0ne;372344]
Making lots of frags is ok and may be even a very good job for the team but
avoiding to get killed brings you nowhere here.[/QUOTE]

Yeah meanwhile I have to admit that k/d would be quite bad for Brink since people allready acting like there is one(afraid of getting killed). Being a coward in RL is one thing, 'cause it can really hurt to be a hero, but being one in a PC game?? Ever experienced a couple of heavy medics wich hid themselfs near their own spawn and started to snipe torwards the enemy territory? So yeah, k/d would utterly ruin teamplay/gameplay in Brink.

But since killing is more important than dying; how about we’d take the “d” out of k/d and show the kills besides every name. It wouldn’t matter if you’d died two times or twenty times to achieve your kills. In fact, people would probably play more aggressive. And thats good I think. It would crank up the pace and excitement of the matches. It would fuel a “pushing mentality”. “Most kills” is nice, but 2nd and 3rd place can also be satisfying. But you wont ever know since only “Most kills” is shown.

Kills should appear on the scoreboard, deaths not. SD should try this and listen to the feedback on the forums. If there are too many complaints they can still take this feature out again.