KEK-10 DPS is way to high

(coruscate) #1

The firerate + the damage is just unbearable if u have a skilled user on it, with a RPM of 700 (just 111 rounds less than the Hochfir per minute)
It deals way more damage in close combat and the firerate isnt that down! 2nd best DPS weapon in the Sub Machinegun class by 2 points!

(umberInlet) #2

If it requires a skill user for it to be good, then it’s probably a skill weapon then? SMG are technically suppose to excel at close combat as well. Also, why nerf the 2nd best SMG and not the best? What?

(coruscate) #3

the highest DPS doesnt mean it is the best SMG the most DPS got a HUGE nerf on the fire rate end which makes it a skill weapon a weapon with a high DMG and Fire rate is easy to use and deals tons of damage.

EDIT: Its not a huge nerf on fire rate but a 50 rpm one which is not too bad considering the 2dmg per second more.

(watsyurdeal) #4

Um…

http://dirtybomb.gamepedia.com/Weapons

I’m seeing differences of less than 10 across the board with SMGs, 122-130 is the range of dps for all smgs…so yea.

(umberInlet) #5

@Coruscate Thanks for clearing up that issue.

(coruscate) #6

[quote=“majesticClue;18856”]Um…

http://dirtybomb.gamepedia.com/Weapons

I’m seeing differences of less than 10 across the board with SMGs, 122-130 is the range of dps for all smgs…so yea.[/quote]

Hey, you found my source! Lets get into detail, shall we?

  • Hochfir is a high fire rate low dmg weapon (9 dmg with 811 rpm and 55 Bullets per mag) it holds the lowest DPS with 122
  • SMG-9 Is a rather slow SMG with 619 rpm and a damage of 12 to compensate for this 2nd lowest DPS with 124
  • Blishlok which got nerfed a bit holds the third place with 125 DPS while beeing the highest DMG submachine gun with 18 DMG and a fire rate of 415 AND another compensation of just 30 bullets per mag!
  • Crotzni got the same damage as the smg9 the same ammo cound but 31 rpm more on the clock which makes it a reliable bullet thrower
  • KEK-10 with 1 dmg less than the SMG-9 and Crotzni it shoots at 50 rounds per minute more with an ammo capacity of 45 it is doing a heck of damage in close range where no other smg can compete
(watsyurdeal) #7

[quote=“Coruscate;18861”]
[*] KEK-10 with 1 dmg less than the SMG-9 and Crotzni it shoots at 50 rounds per minute more with an ammo capacity of 45 it is doing a heck of damage in close range where no other smg can compete
[/list][/quote]

First of all dps doesn’t really make THAT much of a difference since every class has different hp, sure dps is important but only when it assumes that everyone has the exact same stats or without taking headshots or other circumstances into play. Aim time, spread, etc.

Second, 11 damage for the kek, 12 damage for the crotizini, so that is 22 and 24 damage on headshot. Now let’s assume that we’re going after each merc, by hp, here is the ttk range for each gun assuming just those numbers, and every shot lands.

Kek 10

fire rate: 700
damage: 11
headshots: 22

80 hp: 0.26-0.60
90 hp: 0.34-0.69
100 hp: 0.34-0.77
110 hp: 0.34-0.77
120 hp: 0.43-0.86
150 hp: 0.52-1.12

Crotizini

fire rate: 650
damage: 11
headshots: 22

80 hp: 0.28-0.55
90 hp: 0.28-0.65
100 hp: 0.37-0.74
110 hp: 0.37-0.83
120 hp: 0.37-0.83
150 hp: 0.55-1.10

These numbers are calculated by how many shots it takes to kill - 1, times the firing interval for each gun. I also rounded to the nearest two decimal places.

The math here basically seems to assume that the KEK is good if you go for headshots, but the Crotizini is better for aiming at the body. And considering the faster rate of fire the KEK 10 has and the likely accuracy loss because of it…the Crotizini is better.

Please do the research, and also realize that math is always assuming absolute best case scenario. Player skill plays a huge factor here.

(coruscate) #8

[quote=“majesticClue;18869”][quote=“Coruscate;18861”]
[*] KEK-10 with 1 dmg less than the SMG-9 and Crotzni it shoots at 50 rounds per minute more with an ammo capacity of 45 it is doing a heck of damage in close range where no other smg can compete
[/list][/quote]

First of all dps doesn’t really make THAT much of a difference since every class has different hp, sure dps is important but only when it assumes that everyone has the exact same stats or without taking headshots or other circumstances into play. Aim time, spread, etc.

Second, 11 damage for the kek, 12 damage for the crotizini, so that is 22 and 24 damage on headshot. Now let’s assume that we’re going after each merc, by hp, here is the ttk range for each gun assuming just those numbers, and every shot lands.

Kek 10

fire rate: 700
damage: 11
headshots: 22

80 hp: 0.26-0.60
90 hp: 0.34-0.69
100 hp: 0.34-0.77
110 hp: 0.34-0.77
120 hp: 0.43-0.86
150 hp: 0.52-1.12

Crotizini

fire rate: 650
damage: 11
headshots: 22

80 hp: 0.28-0.55
90 hp: 0.28-0.65
100 hp: 0.37-0.74
110 hp: 0.37-0.83
120 hp: 0.37-0.83
150 hp: 0.55-1.10

These numbers are calculated by how many shots it takes to kill - 1, times the firing interval for each gun. I also rounded to the nearest two decimal places.

The math here basically seems to assume that the KEK is good if you go for headshots, but the Crotizini is better for aiming at the body. And considering the faster rate of fire the KEK 10 has and the likely accuracy loss because of it…the Crotizini is better.

Please do the research, and also realize that math is always assuming absolute best case scenario. Player skill plays a huge factor here.

[/quote]
Your math is most certainly correct if u consider 100% acc. which is dumb in the first place and due to the higher rate of fire you are more likely to kill someone with a kek10 than with the stronger crotz…

(watsyurdeal) #9

Not exactly, like I said before in my above post you gotta consider accuracy of the guns, as well as the player’s own ability to compensate for it.

Accuracy is actually pretty easy to figure out, the numbers aren’t available but the principles are the same in roughly every game.

You have a few values, I’ll try to keep it simple for you though since explaining it in code is just…bullshit really.

Spread - this is simple, this is the angle at which bullets exit your gun, typically measured in radians, or distance from the center of a circle. The higher it is, the wider the cone of fire for your shots, the lower it is, the tighter, meaning your shots are more likely to go where you point.

Handling - let’s call this the minimum spread value ok? This is where spread starts out for each gun assuming the player is moving.

Recoil - this is how much is added to spread per shot, so if it’s 2, that means your spread will increase by 2 per shot, so by the 5th shot it’s 10, the 10th shot it’s 20 and so on.

Stability - this is how fast the Spread returns to it’s beginning state, so in other words, how long it takes for the gun to get pinpoint accuracy after firing.

Accuracy - This is the maximum possible spread you can have with you gun

Now, let’s assume you’re firing the KEK and Cro at the same time, the KEK will become inaccurate much faster because of it’s faster rate of fire, and because it fires faster it’s a bit harder to control the recoil. Meaning you’ll be more accurate with the Cro since it fire slower, and therefore allows more control. If you don’t believe me look up UDK, and UTWeapon.ini, there you’ll see stats for the guns, and they all follow these basic principles.

To sum it up man, DPS doesn’t mean much since there a ton more factors to account for, the health, like I said, the accuracy and control of the gun, and the player’s ability to control it. Either way you look at the KEK doesn’t offer any major distinct advantage, some players will use it and some won’t. It depends on what they like and what Merc they are using.

So yea, I think that pretty much wraps it up

(Szakalot) #10

@majesticClue You are reinventing weapon stats.

Recoil in DB is how much YOUR MOUSE MOVES when firing your gun, you have both vertical and horizontal recoil (movement). Accuracy is the measure of how quickly spread increases when spraying&moving. If you look up sniper-rifle accuracy stats - its full bar (100%), meaning your bullets always go where you aim. But PDP-70 has significant recoil, so your mouse will move a lot when firing (and so will your shots if you dont compensate)

(watsyurdeal) #11

[quote=“Szakalot;18995”]@majesticClue You are reinventing weapon stats.

Recoil in DB is how much YOUR MOUSE MOVES when firing your gun, you have both vertical and horizontal recoil (movement). Accuracy is the measure of how quickly spread increases when spraying&moving. If you look up sniper-rifle accuracy stats - its full bar (100%), meaning your bullets always go where you aim. But PDP-70 has significant recoil, so your mouse will move a lot when firing (and so will your shots if you dont compensate)[/quote]

When I used the term recoil, it was for simplification. Not everyone here is a programmer, but yes recoil does work the way in you described. Which still basically mans the KEK isn’t all that great since you need better recoil control on the player’s side to make it better than the Cro.

The short and sweet version is this, you have a maximum and minimum spread, your spread will start out at the minimum, and each shot you fire adds spread till it reaches the max, taking time between your shots and tapping it out slows it down a bit, as cooldown sets it to reset your spread back to the minimum value. Since the KEK has a faster rate of fire, it’ll become inaccurate faster, which is counter intuitive since the only time it’s a better gun is if you can headshot.

(coruscate) #12

[quote=“majesticClue;19017”][quote=“Szakalot;18995”]@majesticClue You are reinventing weapon stats.

Recoil in DB is how much YOUR MOUSE MOVES when firing your gun, you have both vertical and horizontal recoil (movement). Accuracy is the measure of how quickly spread increases when spraying&moving. If you look up sniper-rifle accuracy stats - its full bar (100%), meaning your bullets always go where you aim. But PDP-70 has significant recoil, so your mouse will move a lot when firing (and so will your shots if you dont compensate)[/quote]

When I used the term recoil, it was for simplification. Not everyone here is a programmer, but yes recoil does work the way in you described. Which still basically mans the KEK isn’t all that great since you need better recoil control on the player’s side to make it better than the Cro.

The short and sweet version is this, you have a maximum and minimum spread, your spread will start out at the minimum, and each shot you fire adds spread till it reaches the max, taking time between your shots and tapping it out slows it down a bit, as cooldown sets it to reset your spread back to the minimum value. Since the KEK has a faster rate of fire, it’ll become inaccurate faster, which is counter intuitive since the only time it’s a better gun is if you can headshot.[/quote]

What you describe is pretty close to CS/BF but it doesnt really apply to dirty bomb since the maximum spread is still reasonable on point. Spread doesnt matter in close combat since you arent that far away, duh.
It is my opinion that a kek10 in cqc is a bit to strong, you seem to disaggree which is fine!
It seems that I didnt make myself clear enough, the spread/inaccuracy isnt the problem but the chance to hit the head while just headlining is higher with the kek10 than with the crotz due to the rate of fire so having a good aim is more rewarding with the crotz but having the kek10 is a bit more valuable in cqb

(watsyurdeal) #13

But it’s not enough to justify a nerf in any sense of the word, both have their place, and both are built for different tastes. There’s nothing wrong with them.

(syku) #14

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1yYDiX77THpjA-hImu2eRLio-ayOvGnDEeorZgHAieVQ/edit#gid=0 Use this if you want to calculate time to kill with different accuracy % and headshot %

(Szakalot) #15

some things seemed to be outdated/wrong?

Fletcher shotgun - Ahnuld 12, has only 5 bullets? Its RoF seems to be faster than the other too actually, though I could be wrong.

(Szakalot) #16

[quote=“majesticClue;19017”][quote=“Szakalot;18995”]@majesticClue You are reinventing weapon stats.

Recoil in DB is how much YOUR MOUSE MOVES when firing your gun, you have both vertical and horizontal recoil (movement). Accuracy is the measure of how quickly spread increases when spraying&moving. If you look up sniper-rifle accuracy stats - its full bar (100%), meaning your bullets always go where you aim. But PDP-70 has significant recoil, so your mouse will move a lot when firing (and so will your shots if you dont compensate)[/quote]

When I used the term recoil, it was for simplification. Not everyone here is a programmer, but yes recoil does work the way in you described. Which still basically mans the KEK isn’t all that great since you need better recoil control on the player’s side to make it better than the Cro.

The short and sweet version is this, you have a maximum and minimum spread, your spread will start out at the minimum, and each shot you fire adds spread till it reaches the max, taking time between your shots and tapping it out slows it down a bit, as cooldown sets it to reset your spread back to the minimum value. Since the KEK has a faster rate of fire, it’ll become inaccurate faster, which is counter intuitive since the only time it’s a better gun is if you can headshot.[/quote]

Im not sure what the specific value is that determines how quickly weapon’s spread increases - stability maybe?

In any case, I only pointed it out since devs specifically use the term ‘recoi’ to describe how the crosshair moves when firing.

(syku) #17

some things seemed to be outdated/wrong?

Fletcher shotgun - Ahnuld 12, has only 5 bullets? Its RoF seems to be faster than the other too actually, though I could be wrong.[/quote]
I have forgotten to update the ahnuld 12 sorry about that, will do ASAP.

(watsyurdeal) #18

some things seemed to be outdated/wrong?

Fletcher shotgun - Ahnuld 12, has only 5 bullets? Its RoF seems to be faster than the other too actually, though I could be wrong.[/quote]
I have forgotten to update the ahnuld 12 sorry about that, will do ASAP.
[/quote]

Still looks good though, I didn’t think to accommodate for accuracy % in TTK.