"Just another random whiner"

(guru{Chux}) #1

Being in DB ever since it first went into beta and seeing how the game “evolved” with obvious stuff being neglected and swept under the carpet all this time I almost feel like you guy took a wrong turn somewhere. Despite the fact others made similar posts and pointed out the some of the problems still present, I’ll join in and repeat some of those and state my opinion on certain issues. And it’s not just me, people I’ve talked to about the gameplay complained more or less about the same things.

I had a privilege to have Dev playing on the server a few week ago. After stating that the balance was horrible in chat and ended up being called “just another random whiner” by a few of the asskissers who just seem to worship the game a dev is around. The Dev was a bit puzzled and unsure what the problem was (obviously the game is perfect) but interested in what I had to say. After briefly pointing out a few major things, he didn’t say a word and was gone within minutes. And that’s the sort of reaction I see all the time, ever since I’ve been in DB. People point out obvious stuff that should be addressed and you guys just take cover hoping it would go away. Or at least that the people will go away taking the problems with them.

Being in competition FPS games for the last 7-8 years, and far longer in multiplayer FPS in general. I’ve seen my fair share of games, gameplay and different mechanics so I think I know what I’m talking about when I bitch about why certain stuff just wont work or see it as broken. I’ll stick just to game mechanics this time, although I do dislike some of the audio and visuals as well (don’t like the voice acting, guns sound alike, menus dysfunctional, shitty timers for joining, etc) but I consider those less important compared to this stuff.

So here we go:

#1 Health Station

This thing is a nightmare, simply put heal rate is way to fast and it heals everyone in range. I find myself shooting at Auras close to stations and nothing. I like think of myself as a decent shot but I empty an entire magazine (SMG) and barely manage to get her down to 30%. Not even halfway through my reload and she is at 100%. Usually i then get sniped with 2 shotgun blasts and that’s that… And that was selfheal! Poor old Sawbonez is useless in comparison. This thing has uber healrate and selfheal, and if its round a corner of behind cover, you more or less don’t stand a chance. I would turn the rates around, give health packs more rate, and make the station give slow constant heals. it just makes more sense to have the packs stronger since they are limited due to cooldown and only apply 1 per patient. Atm, the station is just better in almost every way, multiple targets, superior heal and self heal rate and many mercs have no real way to deal with it. Deploy time is also too quick if you ask me. The Dispenser from TF2 should be more of a general idea how this thing should work.

#2 Class/Weapons Balance

Most of all Fragger, way too strong, best guns, nades kill way to easy and fly out at the speed of light. I don’t mind the damage that much, the blast radius is kind of goofy though, I get killed across the room way to often. Combine everything said with #1 and you have a megagay setup. I did read through the upcoming Bushwacker update notes, and wtf. An already powerful Br-16 gets a buff but better nerf Crotzni which was the only reason Sawbonez stood a chance against someone. Shotguns are still, in a word, bullshit. Seeing people spamming jump and shooting makes me wanna puke.

I dislike more or less oneshot kills of any kind. I believe everyone should have a chance to fight back at least. Sniper headshot would be an exception, takes a bit of work to hit those so a reward is in order. Bit instagibs are not okay in my book. Certain stuff should be able to instagib, but it seems everything does, nades from half a room away and mines as well.

Speaking of mines, their existence is okay, but I really dislike the way they work right now. The place and shoot it is just gay. Proxy suicide bombers killing half of the room, that’s just wrong. It’s not even fun, regardless what side you play on. Proxy in general is a suicide runner, her defuse is too quick so lemmings tactics are viable which is not a good thing. Full sprint, place some mines in the crowd, run to the obj, defuse a bit, repeat. I look back on some previous games and miss the fact you needed to manually arm the mine and also had a chance to defuse it. It was more of a tactical decision toplant a mine that took time, although a very small amount of time but still required your attention for a bit. Most of the stuff here is just fire and forget.

Melee strikes are too much as well, 50hp per hit is kind of high. Backstabs should be rewarded, but regular swipes, come on, this isn’t CoD.

#3 General Features

In general regarding balance the only things I hear are ECHO this ECHO that. Leave it aside sometimes and thing about some of the stuff, gathering data is good and all, but blindly looking at the numbers doesn’t do any good if you ask me, not at this stage at least.

Friendly fire and collision are a big deal and should be experimented with as soon as possible. A lot of mentioned stuff is possible due to the fact FF is not enabled. Airstrike, nade and mine spam had no drawbacks. You can do a defuse under your team strike and be pretty much safe from anything, better still, proxy can complete it probably before the smoke clears. The need to control your abilities so you don’t do your team more harm than good should be a thing. FF is one more reason i think the ECHO balance is not accurate.

A lack of objective types. Everything is the same, plant-carry, escort-carry. Give the others something to do, hacking was quite fun why did that got cut out ? Having a dedicated hacker (covert ops) brings some versatility to the team, making teams with 4-5 engs less efficient.

There, that’s just some of the issues from the top of my mind. There is more, ragnak, pixel and some of the guys pointed that out already. Some core gameplay mechanics in question here, since the game is aimed at the comp scene (at least I hope it still is) the mentioned suggestions should be considered.

(Szakalot) #2

[quote=“guru{Chux};2165”]FF is one more reason i think the ECHO balance is not accurate.
[/quote]

Key point here!

(Shackahn) #3

I dont think you are saying anything that others havent voiced already. All I can say is the game is still in closed beta and I hope some of these changes make their way into the game.

(Tomme) #4

[quote=“Szakalot;12982”][quote=“guru{Chux};2165”]FF is one more reason i think the ECHO balance is not accurate.
[/quote]

Key point here![/quote]

I take a probably much more unpopular view and while I have stated there could be problems with Echo, I do believe it will be a key tool in balancing the game. Yes it could provide inaccurate data for high level play - but please remember the game has to be fun for the masses, and I say this as a competitive player.

A successful competitive game must be fun and balance at a “lower level” to attract competition and growth.

I do not mean to take anything away for the points raised by OP though; just wish to state how Echo is useful and will be an important part of the game.

(guru{Chux}) #5

Without a doubt, a powerful and useful tool, I just sometimes feel it’s relied on a bit too much disregarding other variables or not accounting certain features into play.

Though I do have a competition mindset about certain things, I do find the points mentioned to be a problem at a low level to begin width. It just escalates much more on a higher level

(Szakalot) #6

[quote=“Tomme;12987”][quote=“Szakalot;12982”][quote=“guru{Chux};2165”]FF is one more reason i think the ECHO balance is not accurate.
[/quote]

Key point here![/quote]

I take a probably much more unpopular view and while I have stated there could be problems with Echo, I do believe it will be a key tool in balancing the game. Yes it could provide inaccurate data for high level play - but please remember the game has to be fun for the masses, and I say this as a competitive player.

A successful competitive game must be fun and balance at a “lower level” to attract competition and growth.

I do not mean to take anything away for the points raised by OP though; just wish to state how Echo is useful and will be an important part of the game.[/quote]

I’m not bashing ECHO in itself, but I definitely agree that FF off/on is a huge difference when it comes to spammy abilities.
Mines take a whole new layer of tactics if they can be blown up by either side, and damage everyone.

(Tomme) #7

Sorry I did kind of miss the point, just been reading to many posts in other threads attacking Echo with little cause.

I do agree 100% that the game changes dratically when played with FF on; and I personally would prefer to play on FF servers mainly due to the reason of player, not team based, timed abilities. In other games like Enemy Territory playing on public servers with FF off did not turn into a massive spamfest (some did though ha) but this was due to team based limits, limits on mines; limits on airstrikes.

(Varonth) #8

That is like such an important thing… I recently re-installed Brink to see what I liked about that game, and while it is better that everyone can do any objective in Dirty Bomb, every non engineer class feels like it is only there to kill people while the engineer does get the objective done.

Not only doesn’t engineer have to be better at every single objective, but the difference in time it takes to do an objective is insane. It is like 8~10 times faster to do with an engineer.

It should be split upon different classes, like soldier types being better at placing explosives, engineers being better at repairing and defensive types being better at defusing (maybe not healers). And the difference should maybe being twice as fast not like 8 times faster.

(dignifiedIncrease) #9

I think game play wise mines and healing stations are the biggest problems. how they are played now isn’t fun to play against. Mine being the worse off the 2. Easy to place down and even easier to get kills with. Run into an area and drop 1 and then watch the carnage.

(guru{Voshy}) #10

Closed beta can’t be an excuse after you start selling things the way they do now. Or after THREE YEARS the game is in alpha/beta. :slight_smile:

(ivoryQuestion) #11

Answer = Nexon
Great OP, Summed up nicely and concisely.
I only rate this 70% of what I expected but its still enough for me after playing the Earlier Beta’s.
I knew the game was headed this direction because Nexon and also thats the game market we are in these days unfortunately so it wasnt a big surprise for me at all.
The price was though…but compared to some other games its not stupid crazy.
i.e Just per-ordered a ship on WoWs for triple the price…
lolz

(bubblesKeyboard) #12

Just a week ago I rage posted on the forums about the exact same things but by talking to people I realized the inevitable, which I will share with you. It’s no shocker, but simply the fact that the game is still in beta phase.

You can’t balance mercs unless all the mercs are in the picture. Like @Szakalot always reminds me, 1 out of 7 or 8 mercs that can deal with Aura’s healing station with ease are not in the game currently. That one merc is Fragger and you’d know what I mean when I say dealing with Aura being Fragger is extremely easy. If they balance her healing station now, and then the rest of the mercs come back into play, her station might end up being useless.

Again, Fragger is the easiest to use atm because he is a top-tier slayer merc and the only one available right now. There are other mercs much more heaviest and punch-packing than he is, like Rhyno, but they’re not in the game right now. That being said, if you learn how to deal with Fragger (ie. not head on), he’s pretty easy to deal with. His clunky character and slow movement speed is fairly easy to deal with unless he focuses all his attention on you.

A lot of people that have an SD background keep pushing for FF to be enabled - personally I don’t think it’s a huge deal. Although I can understand FF in making the game more tactical, I don’t really understand merc collision. The only thing I’ve ever received from merc collision in previous (non SD) games is being trolled by people trapping me in corners and teammates blocking me from running away from explosions. TBH I’ve never felt the game to be spammy. The only thing I’ve ever thought of as truly broken is how Proxy mercs can bullrush into a group of enemies and plant mines down. They usually activate right after she gets killed and ends up wiping out the entire team.

(bubblesKeyboard) #13

A successful competitive game must be fun and balance at a “lower level” to attract competition and growth.

I do not mean to take anything away for the points raised by OP though; just wish to state how Echo is useful and will be an important part of the game.

I don’t know about that, CS:GO is absolutely brutal to newcomers. So is LoL to an extent, and Quake as well sometimes

(Zenity) #14

[quote=“S7ven;13222”]

A successful competitive game must be fun and balance at a “lower level” to attract competition and growth.

I do not mean to take anything away for the points raised by OP though; just wish to state how Echo is useful and will be an important part of the game.

I don’t know about that, CS:GO is absolutely brutal to newcomers. So is LoL to an extent, and Quake as well sometimes[/quote]

CSGO is brutally hard to be competitive in, but it’s actually not hard at all to have some fun and get kills. It’s funny sometimes to see some person who couldn’t hit the broad side of a barn, still rake in respectable scores just from sitting in some corner on a casual server waiting to backrape people with a shotgun or spray them down with a P90. Sometimes I feel like patience is 80% of the skill required on CSGO public servers.

In addition, CS:GO has excellent casual gametypes which provide a really gentle introduction (Arm’s Race, etc) and of course more than enough players to have a wellworking matchmaking system, so you really are more likely to play against similarly skilled people if you choose to dip into competitive.

Quake on the other hand is essentially dead for a reason. Quake Live has been trying to revive it by making all kinds of concessions to new players, but even so it holds very little appeal to newcomers. This wasn’t such a huge issue when it came out, since playing Quake in general is actually super easy (pick up weapon, shoot anything that moves), and back then there were a lot more people who were new to this type of gameplay.

The MOBAs are a bit of an oddball, both super easy to play and super hard to comprehend and do well in. Maybe they are not a good comparison for shooters.

(bubblesKeyboard) #15

Kind of off topic now but Quake is still very much alive with a small but hardened community who wont budge

Idk about CS:GO I hopped in DM and got spawn raped many times, then hopped on casual and couldnt hit anything. It was only after hundred of hours on training workshops I was able to do well

(guru{Voshy}) #16

And that is exactly what it should be. Useless in a fight. Against anyone. Should go down with 1 bullet, or even if you look at it angry. But even then it would be too good in some situations probably, because the whole concept of that thing is broken and retarded.

Healing station still has more HP than Aura. And doesn’t have a head to hit. And Aura is free, the only merc that has a chance against Aura with a brain is 10 euros. I love how this game turned out to be more pay2win than pretty much any other game, after listening for 3 years how they are never going to allow that. What was wrong with selling skins, hats, weapon sprays, who the fuck cares what. Kids would spend even more money on that, everyone would be happy. But no, better make it so you have no fucking chance if you don’t spend money. Who cares about looking like an idiot after 3 years of repeating something when you can be an idiot with easy money? Even Riot, the joke of the gaming world doesn’t let you buy everything with real money to at least somehow show you can’t just buy everything. In dirty bomb, you can do exactly that.

I am an even bigger idiot who is going to spend that money even if I would probably rather see a child get stabbed to death than reward you for this crap with my money. But sadly, your crap is closer to something i want out of the game than other crap around, and without spending money I can’t enjoy it as much. So you put me in a great position where i hate both myself and you, but you are the one who deserve it this time. Greedy bastards.

And what is with the servers? We don’t have anywhere to play. What are you thinking ffs, removing servers every patch? I can’t play stopwatch for 10 days already, but since yesterday I cant even get a slot on objective? The only chance of getting a slot is to wait for 10-15mins until peoples GAME DIES WHEN THE MAP IS OVER and than jump in. So i guess game dying after every map is a feature for you really, as it’s the only reason people waiting can maybe be faster and get a slot. Every patch is 1 step forward, 6 steps back. I don’t get it, seems like 3 monkeys pushing random buttons in some office there. When they push them enough times, new patch is here and let’s all together see what you managed to fuck up this time around.

I know someone will say this is still closed beta and I should be patient, but I am already playing this game longer than most of the MP games survive. And I was late at the party, alpha players are here for even much longer. At some point after 3 years of players being on contact with the game, that should stop being an excuse. Or after starting selling things?