Jumping forward momentum loss

(stealth6) #141

In that video they are using adrenaline to keep jumping… So it’s not really like that would be possible in a normal match. Also many of the jumps as I said are not very beneficial (yay I’m in a window and can’t move, as soon as they figure out where I am I’m dead)
Yes I understand that some of those jumps are also possible without adrenaline, but then it’s a bigger risk. (again balanced)

Other shortcuts / skips while not obvious I don’t think are gamebreaking. If there is 1 way to jump over the old wall or 10 ways it doesn’t matter. The mapper just has to take into account that it’s possible to skip this part.

While it’s not possible to aim at somebody while doing those, that’s also not my point. I was trying to say it is possible to shoot while jumping, but it’s a tradeoff. You can’t take a short cut and take out 3 enemies at the same time, but you can gain some speed while going down a hill and at the same time hit a guy a few times. (That’s why I was also saying that it’s already pretty well balanced)

To try and explain it differently, if they created a new system it would be hard to have the same level of flexibility strafe jumping has. You’re not locked into some kind of animation, you can break it at any time. You can also choose to speed up, slow down, change direction, shoot, etc.

(DarkangelUK) #142

[QUOTE=ailmanki;461027]Uh, maybe the easy-medium jumps are easy to forsee, but uhm… nei, just to much possible.
The following only shows a part of whats possible, there are tons of more jumps, some are insanely difficult and require either luck or very precise movement.
There is no room to aim at someone while doing those.

I ain’t mixing those games, they all share the same acceleration bug, though I have no clue about QW.
ET also has some sort of air control - lol, just not full control. Anyway.[/QUOTE]

I’m not sure I’m getting your argument here, you say some jumps are very difficult to find and very difficult to master and while doing those jumps you can’t aim… why exactly are you against it? Given the fact that someone else doing it doesn’t affect you in any way possible and they don’t have an advantage over you because they can’t aim at you while doing it? Someone spends the time to master something, shouldn’t they reap the rewards for that dedication? Should players that spend the time mastering headshots suddenly be given more spread because too many quick kills are possible for them?

I don’t want everything laid out on a plate for me, and for everyone else for that matter. Half the fun for me tricking in ET was discovering new or potential jumps and spending the time to see if they were possible… and the rush I got when landing a brand new jump after hours of practice knowing no one else had discovered it was amazing. I dislike the idea that everything possible is there for all to see and emergent gameplay is severely neutered… that’s no fun at all!

(ailmanki) #143

No, I am against it, because it seems to be counterproductive to the fragging itself. While yes you can get into superior positions, and yes you need to time it and all, its mostly a bad idea to trickjump in the middle of a fight, well maybe to escape - but still - as soon as you are in air, its easy to predict your path; If any you use WASD and keep your crosshair on the enemy, maybe a tj is possible infight in such a slow game, but I have yet to see one master that… lol.
As such I would like to see a movement system which can also be used infight. And really it should be as perfect as water can be simulated - well thats what I expect from it. The acceleration bug from Q3 is as such perfect I think.

The second thing I see as a problem is for the mapper, who has to consider many possible trickjumps. But well, that should not be a show stopper actually.

I have nothing against trickjumping, I love it actually. I still play from time to time some Quake 3 or QL.

About headshots, as long as you need more then one - all is fine for me.

(DarkangelUK) #144

And that’s what makes tricking in objective based games all the better… it’s not all about fragging. I won a ton of games in ET without firing a shot, I think you’re getting way to into shooting part and just plain dismissing everything else for no other reason than you don’t want it there.

(ailmanki) #145

I can only imagine a few ways where you can complete a map without firing a shot.
All those maps where you can do that, its not allowed in competitive - at least in Enemy-Territory. Also most public servers disallow trickjumping to solve an objective - you can tj all you want to get into superior positions, but not to skip an objective, or trickplant… or anything related.

As much as I share your view, seriously I love doing objective an evade everyone. I know that the enemy feels completely tricked, if you do this often enough they feel cheated. I saw both sides kinda, after so many forum discussions with players.
I am not sure but I suppose that is one of the reasons, QuakeWars had those separated objectives, just like DirtyBomb -try destroying the train before switching the track.

Since I doubt SD is going to add that to the Unreal Engine, I am trying to get at least a proper replacement. What I would like to see is an equivalent in deepness and perfectness to the q3bug, which can be used infight. Maybe SD can come with an idea, I for the moment have no clue.

(DarkangelUK) #146

I’m still not really getting your argument dude sorry. If comp & some server owners want to ban it that’s fine. If it’s there and people don’t want it, ban it from the server and all is good and they’re not affected… not including it in the first place because some people don’t want it then a whole heap of people are alienated because of that.

As for feeling cheated, kinda like “aw that guy spent hundreds of hours mastering a movement system and is now using that to his advantage, that’s not fair!” cheated? Poor map design that allowed for the trickplant in the first place? If it’s banned on that specific server or league, no great loss.

(Nail) #147

as engi I won several Fuel Dump games without firing a shot, had my trusty sidekick Cov Ops and a maniac medic

not 1 tj

(DarkangelUK) #148

In that case it should read “as engi we won several Fuel Dump games” :tongue:

I admit though, that was one of my fave team work tactics in ET, using a disguised cov ops to open back doors you couldn’t normally get through. It meant the defenders had to keep an eye on their ass and not get sloppy by lemming rushing (funny hearing people rage at other players on Battery for jumping down onto the beach and giving the cov ops a disguise to use).

I wonder if SD could implement something like that, defender only doors/elevators, cov ops can hack a dead player to get a keycode that lets them use them until they get killed.

(ailmanki) #149

[QUOTE=DarkangelUK;461323]In that case it should read “as engi we won several Fuel Dump games” :tongue:

I admit though, that was one of my fave team work tactics in ET, using a disguised cov ops to open back doors you couldn’t normally get through. It meant the defenders had to keep an eye on their ass and not get sloppy by lemming rushing (funny hearing people rage at other players on Battery for jumping down onto the beach and giving the cov ops a disguise to use).

I wonder if SD could implement something like that, defender only doors/elevators, cov ops can hack a dead player to get a keycode that lets them use them until they get killed.[/QUOTE]

See its indeed so, that is a huge fun factor to fool the enemy. But the enemy feels fooled. And if you do that often enough your playing alone.

Basically it is to easy to sneak through or to jump through, I am not even good a tj, and I can do these jumps. On most of our servers (Bunker Gaming, B1 & B2) you can TJ all you want to solve objective. Or use covert ops to sneak through. Though some trickplants are prevented with mapscripts (like planting oasis cannon from outside), but besides that you can do whatever you want.

You say its funny hearing them rage on Battery, now that rage, is indeed the reason why I am against Trickjump in DirtyBomb.

Because the player who jumped down, giving them a uni, is most probably not going to defend the backdoor nor Gun Controls, most probably he will die again and give them another uni.

Have you ever waited at an objective, only to prevent a quick ending of a map - but then no one comes, cause they knew you had been camping? All this stuff is no fun. And to design a map, so that all this stuff is not getting frustrating is difficult. The original 6 maps from ET, did not consider all possible things.

[QUOTE=Nail;461298]as engi I won several Fuel Dump games without firing a shot, had my trusty sidekick Cov Ops and a maniac medic

not 1 tj[/QUOTE]
Sure now if you can tj, you had been able to the same quicker, and all alone. While you will feel probably heroish, its actually just to easy and stupid.
Its not like the TJ into Fueldump is hard, and its not like there is only one way to jump in.
Its a team game, giving a single player that much power - dunno. Sure I was also one of those heroes - not going to deny that. LOL. But I also see this from an admin view, trying to fill up his server - and I can tell its no good.

edit: forgot this, that you can solve those maps with a covert, is the reason we did not disallow tjing on our servers.
Yet usually the better players, don’t do the objective selfishly. As it usually just ends the map prematurely.

(Demanufacturer) #150

tl;dr

i can’t really weigh in on the momentum since i’ve played around 5 hours of the game and only on 200-400 ping

but one aspect of rtcw/et and by extension quake (yes quake came first) i really enjoyed was the concept of movement as an art form in the game.

also the possibility that some defensive positions/attack routes could only be accessed by those with the requisite movement skills… and the ability to pull them off under pressure.

should they be a focus here? i cant say. an active community is more important.

also the unreal engine has a different feel (takes off cpt obvious hat) - ive always been an ID engine player… so its weird to me.

that is all =p

(DarkangelUK) #151

That statement may hold value if there weren’t so many examples of games where this simply isn’t true.

You say its funny hearing them rage on Battery, now that rage, is indeed the reason why I am against Trickjump in DirtyBomb.

I dont think you read my post, I said they rage at players jumping down onto the beach because that gives the attacking cov ops a uniform to use to sneak in the back entrance… absolutely nothing to do with tricking.

(stealth6) #152

If map design is the only problem, then I don’t see the problem. For instance place the objective at the top of a hill, then there is no way to tj into it. (This is an extreme example, but I’m just trying to say it’s not impossible to make an area inaccessible if you know what you have to look out for)

Also again making the player aware of what’s possible through ingame hints would be nice too.

Another thing is that trickjumping in ET is so many things:

  • You can strafejump
  • You can slide on diagonal surfaces
  • You can use diagonal surfaces as ramps

So if DB only incorporated strafejump then it still wouldn’t be the same as ET. (I think you’re generalizing trickjump as 1 thing, when it’s actually has so many different elements)

(DarkangelUK) #153

When SD designed their maps for ET, I don’t think they were really aware of just what was possible with the movement within the game and neither were the vast majority of the players… and that’s what makes it so awesome. Suddenly this whole new diverse monster reared it’s head and brought forth a whole new element to the game that no one could have predicted. Emergent gameplay trumps shoe-horned restrictions every single time…

(stealth6) #154

Well that’s one way to view it, the other is that it just broke the whole design of a map. But in that case they could just tweak the map (insert reference to “game as a service” - aka constant updates)

While I agree it’s cool seeing people find these routes I’d also like to see SJ in DB just for the freedom it gives in general. (Escaping gun fights, quickly jumping in to revive a player, catching up to an enemy,…) Not just to skip objectives. (Although I don’t see anything wrong with this if it’s advertised in the game)

(DarkangelUK) #155

I don’t see the problem if SD actively engage it with their map design. Again back to the notion of rewarding dedication… make a jump that’s extremely difficult to pull off, but if you manage it then you get easy access to a very quick alt route, or even the option to throw a switch at the top that opens an alt route for your team. Combine that with advertising the fact it’s there, not only will people be aware of it, they’ll dedicate some time to learning the movement system so they can take advantage of these benefits. Feels like people are against it either due to laziness, they don’t want others to have an upper hand just because they can’t be bothered to learn it themselves or simply of “no fair :(”

(ailmanki) #156

You got me their, I guess the only reason I see against trickjump are the maps. And as such this is also valid with other mechanics, which can make the game frustrating, like covert ops, player stacking …

Well now I wonder, either trickjumping is broken or the maps in ET. I guess its a matter of perspective, since tj was already existing in the engine, I had say the maps are broken.

Gota say thanks for updating my perspective to this!

(stealth6) #157

I don’t think it’s either, I think it’s just that it isn’t advertised in the game so many people weren’t aware that these things are possible. Mostly causing huge frustration in pub matches. Where as you say you either stand around waiting at the last objective for nobody to show up or the map is finished in 5 minutes when normally it takes 15+.