Javelin's not OP, just cheesy/ Trying to address her issues

[zykeroth]

Now if I have your attention, I’ll list some of the issues based on experience and other’s opinions, and try to provide some suggestions on fixing it.

ROCKET LAUNCHER

The biggest part of the problem; if you can’t react fast enough or she makes herself bounce around unpredictably she will just use the thing for an easy kill or just bring you down with her, sometimes inconsistently surviving a point blank rocket; it’s also mediocre at bringing down the EV.

1. STANDARD/1V1 CHEESE KILLS

Issue: The time between getting the rocket out and shooting it is about 1.25 seconds, taking the weapon switch time into consideration; the opponent having about that much time to shoot her down or escape, making either pretty hard to pull off, especially if she starts bouncing around, since quite few of us have such pinpoint accuracy to kill her. Once she gets the rocket off she’s pretty much guaranteed to get the kill in a 1v1 close to medium range scenario with the speed of the rocket. This is way too easy for the Javelin to do, and demands an unreasonable amount of skill from the average player to survive.

Solution A: Increase the time it takes to bring out the rawket lawnchair significantly. This way, the Jav player will hesitate the cheese kill or just get himself killed trying.
Solution B: Increase the charge time even further.

The mandatory change: fixing the bloody audio cue and making it more noticeable. I feel I don’t have to explain this.

Reasoning: Either of these ways, she has to get in line with the other Fire Supports and Assault mercs as all of them have a significant amount of time between pressing the Ability button and its result, in which they can be escaped or shot down.

Also an issue, but not big: lower the Rocket’s HP down to 7 from 20. If you actually manage to shoot the thing you might as well take it down with a single shot, expecting chained shots on it is too much. As it might even be shot by stray fire it will encourage using the currently overshadowed Guided mode, mentioned below.

2. GUIDED MODE

Issue: It’s extremely hard to control! It’s overly responsive and sensitive to the mouse movements, making it very counter-intuitive and doesen’t seem to follow the laws of momentum. While at it, the smoke trail worsens the already difficult to gauge distance traveled- every time I try to make it go past a corner, I hit that specific corner instead. Depth perception is a problem.

Solution: Add a delay between the mouse movement and the rocket’s reaction to it. This should make it way easier and incentivizing to use it, also either removing or making the rocket much less obscured by the smoke behind it, perhaps making the rocket bigger too.

3. ABILITY TO DESTROY EV

I believe she’s not supposed to solo Fire Support by any means, but still as a secondary FS she doesen’t quite cut the deal close. Since if she direct hits someone they are gibbed anyways, increase the direct hit dmg to take down half of the EV’s health. The non-direct hit damage should stay as it is.

AMMO PRINTER

1. SUPPLYING OTHERS

It’s not as bad people make it to be, but sometimes I find myself chasing the Jav player because I’m just outside the range of it.

The only suggestions I have for it is that the range and half-a-mag/second rate should be increased a little, or she should just drop as much ammo as a station. After all, she’s a mobile ammo station. The advantage of an ammo station is that you don’t have to be there for someone to give ammo, but you also have to go to it.

2. SELF SUPPLY

In this aspect, she’s quite horrible at supplying herself.

Issue: 0.5 mag/20 seconds.

Solution: Buff it to 1-1.5 mag per 20 seconds.

Thank you for reading!

[TheStrangerous]

Javelin feels like the anti-tank class, but in a game without vehicles.

Her rocket should do more damage to deployables/objectives rather than players. Just a thought, of creating different damages for different “materials”.

[phobiatic]

My thought is that javalin is way too mobile with the rocket out. As you mention, a lot of people start wall jumping and bunny hopping and once they in a disadvantage take out the rocket and we know the result.

Why not give javalin a penalty so she can’t wall jump / long jump with the rocket out and make her move slower, same as rhino has with the mini gun. Don’t think you should be very mobile with a rocket launcher on your shoulder.

[GatoCommodore]

@phobiatic said:
My thought is that javalin is way too mobile with the rocket out. As you mention, a lot of people start wall jumping and bunny hopping and once they in a disadvantage take out the rocket and we know the result.

Why not give javalin a penalty so she can’t wall jump / long jump with the rocket out and make her move slower, same as rhino has with the mini gun. Don’t think you should be very mobile with a rocket launcher on your shoulder.

the LAW launcher is only 5 kg while something like MK46 that thunder held is around
10 kg loaded.

javelin also wears somekind of arm exosuit on her right hand, probably to carry the modified law launcher.

Right now, the good countermeasure for fighting javelin are
First, if she went into cover or pull out the rocket is to run away or hide behind a hard cover (if she used the straight shot)

(same as fighting kira,skyhammer, arty,stoker,fragger which basically making their ability wasted)

Second, If you are too cramped with your teammate and javelin pulls her rocket, jump straight into her. Worst scenario is only you died (team survived because you body blocked javelin rocket), best scenario she missed and suicided herself by shooting the floor (panic looking at you long jump at her)

so far these past 2 week i only get killed from rocket 3 times using these technique
but there is no telling if javelin players invents other technique to nullify these strategies.

[c4Te]

We will remove her acceleration in the next update. We wanted to try it but based on the community feedback we decided to remove it again.

There are still ideas that get discussed but I don`t think that we will do additional “panic” changes soon. I would like to see how she plays out in ranked and maybe we can do some changes and test them on PTS in the future.

[GatoCommodore]

@c4Te said:
We will remove her acceleration in the next update. We wanted to try it but based on the community feedback we decided to remove it again.

There are still ideas that get discussed but I don`t think that we will do additional “panic” changes soon. I would like to see how she plays out in ranked and maybe we can do some changes and test them on PTS in the future.

so the rocket now shot slow from the start?

[hawkeyeguy99]

@c4Te said:
We will remove her acceleration in the next update. We wanted to try it but based on the community feedback we decided to remove it again.

There are still ideas that get discussed but I don`t think that we will do additional “panic” changes soon. I would like to see how she plays out in ranked and maybe we can do some changes and test them on PTS in the future.

Oh please don’t add her to ranked. It’s my last solace away from her cancer.

[zykeroth]

@hawkeyeguy99 Oh boy yer in for a ride.

[Jigstraw]

As far as I know, Dirty Bomb tries to sell itself as a skill-driven, competitive game. I remember part of its advertising or part of its hype being that it didn’t hold your hand and spoonfeed you as a new player. If you’re bad, you’re bad. We’re not going to give you a crutch, because you need to gitgud; don’t be a scrub. That last little bit is practically in the trailer. "We call them scrubs. "

Javelin contradicts that in every way. She’s uncompetitive, definitely a crutch, and definitely doesn’t take skill to use. Except for long-range guided rocket trickshots (which I’ve seen like, exactly 3 players do btw) she requires absolutely no practice or learning in order to play her with some degree of efficacy. The problem with this is that her incredibly powerful (in the moment) but incredibly easy to use ability pretty much invalidates the skill of any other player she decides to bullshit to death with her noob tube. Javelin compresses the skill gap of the game and allows players that would ordinarily struggle to compete have a more significant impact on the outcome of the match, which goes against everything the more devoted players want this game to be. Why should they bother trying to improve or take the game seriously when someone can put in absolutely no time or effort, but still perform at the same level as they do, albeit in a very limited capacity?

The game should challenge players to improve and reward them for doing so in order to help foster a healthy competitive environment and playerbase, not pander to casual or bad players. I do understand player retention is one of Dirty Bomb’s most significant issues, but I don’t think things like Javelin(as currently implemented) belong in the game. Even if they do help below-average players have a more enjoyable experience with it, conditioning them to associate it with positive memories, and thereby motivating them to return and play again. It’s a steep price to pay, in my opinion. It compromises on what all the players that became invested in the game before her addition liked about it.

A lot of what I’m saying here applies to more than just Javelin, although she is the focus of this post. Thunder for example, unlike Fragger, doesn’t have to cook his concussion grenade in order to use it effectively. He just has to look in the right direction and press Q, then turn around to avoid blinding himself. Even if the concussion grenade misses by a wide margin, anyone that happened to be looking in its general direction will be still be temporarily blinded, essentially rewarding the Thunder in spite of making a bad throw. He’s forgiving to use by design in that regard, which is another example of a merc that can help artificially lessen the difference in skill between two players, which again, means you’re invalidating a more skilled player, to some degree.

All that being said, I don’t think Javelin is overpowered. I think she’s underpowered and needs to be refocused from an assault/fire support hybrid into an actual fire support.

Javelin is objectively the worst fire support at objectives. Stoker can destroy the EV in one molotov on a roughly 30 second cooldown. Arty does it in three strikes, and gets to carry two strike charges at once, so he only has to wait 20 seconds for the third strike needed. Skyhammer does it in one airstrike on a 55 second cooldown. Kira is a strange one, because while her ability is the only one that has a long cooldown yet is unable to destroy the EV in a single use, it’s also the only ability among fire supports that is immune to Guardian’s sky-shield. And now we’ve come to Javelin, who takes three rockets on 30 second cooldowns each to destroy the ev. 90 seconds overall. It’s abysmal.

Javelin is also objectively the worst fire support at giving her team ammo. The radius is so small and the supply rate so slow that you’re better off using an ammo cache somewhere in the map instead of javelin, because at least the ammo cache doesn’t run away and make you chase it down. Skyhammer and Arty will always be the absolute kings of ammo suppliers. Nothing like two arties direct hitting each other with ammo packs, resulting in a combined 30% reduction in cooldowns for their artillery strikes.

Even as an assault, Javelin is inferior to Fragger, as his grenade accomplishes the same thing her rocket does, but with a shorter cooldown, and on a merc with a heftier supply of HP.

I propose you increase the radius of her ammo ability to its pre-nerfed state, but leave the supply rate where it is currently. Should be a big enough help to not have to chase her around so closely.

As for her rocket, I personally believe it should do much more damage to objectives and much less damage to players. I suppose you already addressed its splash damage not insta-gibbing anyone 110 HP and up, but I’d like to see it just not instagib anyone without a direct hit. Killing them is enough, they don’t need to be impossible to revive afterwards too.

Javelin is underpowered, but designed in such a way that is incredibly frustrating to play against. She’s not good for anyone in the long run. Nobody wants to play against her, and people playing as her are using her as a crutch for easy kills by pressing Q. That, or they like the Javelin-exclusive assault rifle. When are you guys going to spread some of these new weapons out to other mercs? When are third edition loadout cards coming?

[Rokon2]

“JAVELIN’S NOT OP, JUST CHEESY/ TRYING TO ADDRESS HER ISSUES”

Proxy shooting an inactive mine she laid down a second before and gets triple kills

Alright then.

[GatoCommodore]

@Rokon2 said:
“JAVELIN’S NOT OP, JUST CHEESY/ TRYING TO ADDRESS HER ISSUES”

Proxy shooting an inactive mine she laid down a second before and gets triple kills

Alright then.

Fragger cooks grenade and throws it to the spawn from 30 meters away
kills the entire spawn

imo fragger is more broken and cheese

[Rokon2]

@GatoCommodore said:

@Rokon2 said:
“JAVELIN’S NOT OP, JUST CHEESY/ TRYING TO ADDRESS HER ISSUES”

Proxy shooting an inactive mine she laid down a second before and gets triple kills

Alright then.

Fragger cooks grenade and throws it to the spawn from 30 meters away
kills the entire spawn

imo fragger is more broken and cheese

I’m not sure I agree with that though. If you cook the grenade, I think that’s the risk of the kill. But with Proxy, because she has a Shotgun, she can just put a mine down, back up a bit, shoot it and almost always guarantee a kill. Fragger at least requires a modicum of aim and knowing where the enemy is.

Then again, most of these mercs are laughably bad. It’s just a matter of making the worst ones less awful.

[GatoCommodore]

@Rokon2 said:

@GatoCommodore said:

@Rokon2 said:
“JAVELIN’S NOT OP, JUST CHEESY/ TRYING TO ADDRESS HER ISSUES”

Proxy shooting an inactive mine she laid down a second before and gets triple kills

Alright then.

Fragger cooks grenade and throws it to the spawn from 30 meters away
kills the entire spawn

imo fragger is more broken and cheese

I’m not sure I agree with that though. If you cook the grenade, I think that’s the risk of the kill. But with Proxy, because she has a Shotgun, she can just put a mine down, back up a bit, shoot it and almost always guarantee a kill. Fragger at least requires a modicum of aim and knowing where the enemy is.

Then again, most of these mercs are laughably bad. It’s just a matter of making the worst ones less awful.

you said it yourself:

Proxy needs to be near enemy to drop the mine, that alone present huge risk.
And then she needs to whip out her weapon, and while at it, she will be under fire by enemies if she got caught. This is the riskiest part.
Enemies can also shoot the mine and kill proxy’s teammate and proxy herself. Another Huge Risk.
And then after surviving all that, she needs to hit the mine and care not to blow herself out, which is another huge risk.

What the enemy could do? Just hold S and watch proxy mine dont deal damage because her mines AoE has been nerfed.

Compared to fragger that:

watch the spawn timer
pull the pin
cook for 1 sec
throw just after people spawned so it doesnt get caught on spawn protection
easy 5 kill

and all of that can be done behind a cover or even longer range.

What the enemy could do? Nothing, because it explode as soon as you are vulnerable to gunshots and you dont have time to hide or even backpedal because you wont see it being thrown or when it is coming

compared to proxy, fragger is pretty risk free.

just because you get killed over and over by proxy throwing mines doesnt mean proxy is broken. Its the player’s fault for not being able to notice.

[Rokon2]

@GatoCommodore said:

@Rokon2 said:

@GatoCommodore said:

@Rokon2 said:
“JAVELIN’S NOT OP, JUST CHEESY/ TRYING TO ADDRESS HER ISSUES”

Proxy shooting an inactive mine she laid down a second before and gets triple kills

Alright then.

Fragger cooks grenade and throws it to the spawn from 30 meters away
kills the entire spawn

imo fragger is more broken and cheese

I’m not sure I agree with that though. If you cook the grenade, I think that’s the risk of the kill. But with Proxy, because she has a Shotgun, she can just put a mine down, back up a bit, shoot it and almost always guarantee a kill. Fragger at least requires a modicum of aim and knowing where the enemy is.

Then again, most of these mercs are laughably bad. It’s just a matter of making the worst ones less awful.

you said it yourself:

Proxy needs to be near enemy to drop the mine, that alone present huge risk.
And then she needs to whip out her weapon, and while at it, she will be under fire by enemies if she got caught. This is the riskiest part.
Enemies can also shoot the mine and kill proxy’s teammate and proxy herself. Another Huge Risk.
And then after surviving all that, she needs to hit the mine and care not to blow herself out, which is another huge risk.

What the enemy could do? Just hold S and watch proxy mine dont deal damage because her mines AoE has been nerfed.

Compared to fragger that:

watch the spawn timer
pull the pin
cook for 1 sec
throw just after people spawned so it doesnt get caught on spawn protection
easy 5 kill

and all of that can be done behind a cover or even longer range.

What the enemy could do? Nothing, because it explode as soon as you are vulnerable to gunshots and you dont have time to hide or even backpedal because you wont see it being thrown or when it is coming

compared to proxy, fragger is pretty risk free.

just because you get killed over and over by proxy throwing mines doesnt mean proxy is broken. Its the player’s fault for not being able to notice.

"Proxy needs to be near enemy to drop the mine, that alone present huge risk."
Yeah, are you absolutely sure about that? With her mobility and her shotgun, there is little risk to running up to a bunch of people and pressing Q to win. Unless they are all directly looking at her, she has absolutely zero risk whatsoever. In fact, when I can, I’ll purchase Proxy, and I’ll do it myself, several times, because it is so braindead easy to pull it off. You don’t even need to attempt to aim. You press Q in their general direction, shoot the floor near the mine and there you go. You cleared the way for your team. By the way, she’s an Engineer. Lol.

"Enemies can also shoot the mine and kill proxy’s teammate and proxy herself. Another Huge Risk."
They can kill the proxy, proxy’s teammate, and also themselves. If Proxy jumps and throws a mine (which is extremely easy because you know… momentum) there is literally nothing you can do when that happens except pray to God you can tank that explosion, otherwise there is zero counter play. “Prevent it from happening” is not counter play, just in case you wanted to bring that up.

"And then after surviving all that, she needs to hit the mine and care not to blow herself out, which is another huge risk. What the enemy could do? Just hold S and watch proxy mine dont deal damage because her mines AoE has been nerfed"
The explosion might have gotten ner- lol… But remember that momentum is still a thing, and she doesn’t have to worry about blowing herself up nearly as easily as the enemy blowing up the mine. Here’s another thing: Why does it even have the capability to blow up when it isn’t even active. Lol? There’s nothing the enemy CAN do, just accept the fact that a fast-moving character with an arguably overpowered shotgun can do insane amounts of damage in a second or less with the push of a button.

"Compared to fragger that:

watch the spawn timer
pull the pin
cook for 1 sec
throw just after people spawned so it doesnt get caught on spawn protection
easy 5 kill"
Assuming the entire enemy team doesn’t move at all when they spawn, otherwise the spawn protection is going to save them from that kind of grenade. Moreover, if the opposing team allows the Fragger to get that far in the first place, then that’s a matter of human error, not a design oversight, because Fragger is slow, and he cannot do anything while cooking a grenade, not even sprint.

Now I personally think Fraggers much, much less annoying to deal with than Proxy. Fragger is a slow moving, large hitbox target with one, slow activating grenade (subjective if you cook a bunch). Proxy is a fast-moving, small hitbox target with two fast-deploying, fast-activating mines, with a shotgun to boot.

[GatoCommodore]

@Rokon2 said:
In fact, when I can, I’ll purchase Proxy, and I’ll do it myself, several times, because it is so >braindead easy to pull it off.

your argument just become invalid.
you havent experienced how to play proxy yourself but you made statemement claim that playing proxy is pure cheese?

you can make a new discussion on general chat, go ask how many people think proxy is cheese.

[Rokon2]

@GatoCommodore said:

@Rokon2 said:
In fact, when I can, I’ll purchase Proxy, and I’ll do it myself, several times, because it is so >braindead easy to pull it off.

your argument just become invalid.
you havent experienced how to play proxy yourself but you made statemement claim that playing proxy is pure cheese?

you can make a new discussion on general chat, go ask how many people think proxy is cheese.

I have played Proxy, actually. A bunch of it. I just haven’t purchased it. But it’s very telling when you dismiss my argument on a baseless assumption, without actually addressing my points. If I had made a Proxy thread about that, how many people do you think would agree that she is cheese?