Javelin Things

(ImSploosh) #21

@TepidJesus said:
@Sefuh_FR Javelin is definitly not the only merc that can whip out there ability in a 1v1 take proxy for example, most people who play proxy (who probably also play Teemo in LoL) will just throw their mine down mid fight and quite happily shoot it weather they are going to die or not, so javelin doing the same thing doesn’t seem like something that needs solving. If you increase the time before the rocket is fired it will make the mechanic seem really weird, think about it, if I click to fire my rocket launcher then I have to wait in the open for two seconds or wait behind a wall and then pop out, changing the charge time will just make her feel clunky. I do not want a repeat of Stoker, where he got need into the ground right after launch where he has never recovered.

Yooo I said the same thing about Stoker. The nerf after launch was bad enough, but then later down the line, think it was the MOFO update, he was nerfed, probably accidentally (could have been bugged or something), and he became useless. I mean, you could run through the fire with Aura no problem. They’ve given him two small buffs since then, and it’s helped, but he’s still nowhere near the effectiveness that he should be at. :frowning:

(znuund) #22

@ImSploosh said:
They’ve given him two small buffs since then, and it’s helped, but he’s still nowhere near the effectiveness that he should be at. :frowning:

Well, you got instakilled and gibbed if he threw a molotov at you :dizzy:

@Sefuh_FR said:

  • Only guided rocket mode
  • longer charge
  • Reduce rocket speed but make it invincible to bullets
  • 10% dmg increased on EV

That is too much. I am mostly missing why these changes should be applied. Is the unguided mode OP too strong? What does the longer charge help with her being OP? Reducing rocket speed so every body can dodge it on medium distances?
She just needs a change so players don’t think they have no chance in evading to get killed by a rocket while still keeping her fun to play.

Actually the only thing I can understand is the EV dmg as it is a rocket and if you are wasting it for the EV it should at least be a bit more dmg.

If there would be audible cue when charging and making her very slow during that, she would be killed easily if focused (which is guaranteed if you heard the audible cue)

(PorkyPerson) #23

Her ammo dispenser is totally broken. I hate the idea of Phoenix-like controls on it, but I also think it practically invalidates every other ammo supplier. Something needs to be better. Perhaps people in range would have to stay in range for a few seconds before ammo starts flowing and topping off would take even longer, because every spawn all I see is XP XP XP medal medal medal.

Yep, she’s brutal, especially if you flank with her, because you can take out an entire team with that ridiculous aoe and absolutely no warning. In line with other mercs, she should have a more prominent warning noise to fire and maybe a pointer or rockets that start slow and speed up.

Rockets that take three or four seconds to prime would be great. I’m thinking something like Nader’s nades where they don’t blow up right out of the launcher. Rockets could stick to whatever they hit and make a nice beeping noise if they hit before they are primed. This would prevent people from rocket suiciding, which is stupidly effective. I’ve also noticed the rockets themselves are often unexpectedly larger than they appear. I’ve blown myself up a few times trying to fire through windows or while standing next to MGs. A prime would help this. Phantom’s EMP could also freeze the timer, making him a little more effective vs rockets since currently turning off guidance is kind of just dumb.

Dumb fire / guided control and indicators are unintuitive. I find myself having to toggle excessively to make sure I’m in the right mode. Mode carries over sometimes, but not always. For example, on death it carries over, but not between attack/defense in Stopwatch, so I feel like I’m always toggling to make sure. It would be much nicer if you could fire a rocket and any time you pressed/held fire it would guide it, otherwise it would go straight(kind of like Kira’s controls).

(Eox) #24

Moving to merc discussions.

(ImSploosh) #25

@znuund said:

@ImSploosh said:
They’ve given him two small buffs since then, and it’s helped, but he’s still nowhere near the effectiveness that he should be at. :frowning:

Well, you got instakilled and gibbed if he threw a molotov at you :dizzy:

No, not before the silent/accidental nerf around the MOFO update. When he first came out, yes, his molotov was a bit too powerful, but they quickly nerfed him. He was fine for a long time until the MOFO update or somewhere around there when he was nerfed out of the blue and as far as I know, there was no mention of it. Of course if your body remained in the fire, you got gibbed, and that makes sense. Direct hits did do more damage I believe, and actually killed, though there were some bugs. Instakills were only when he was first released.

RIP Stoker.

(Sefuh_FR) #26

@TepidJesus said:
@Sefuh_FR Javelin is definitly not the only merc that can whip out there ability in a 1v1 take proxy for example, most people who play proxy (who probably also play Teemo in LoL) will just throw their mine down mid fight and quite happily shoot it weather they are going to die or not, so javelin doing the same thing doesn’t seem like something that needs solving. If you increase the time before the rocket is fired it will make the mechanic seem really weird, think about it, if I click to fire my rocket launcher then I have to wait in the open for two seconds or wait behind a wall and then pop out, changing the charge time will just make her feel clunky. I do not want a repeat of Stoker, where he got need into the ground right after launch where he has never recovered.

" Proxy’s ability is as stupid as Javelin’s one…so why change it? " I don’t get your logic here…

The purpose of Fire Supports is to resupply and destroy EV ( and Generators if possible), their ability would still be less effective / harder to use for killing people compared to Assault mercs…which is not the case with Javelin.
Sky , Arty and Kira abilities and announced by marks on the ground and only effective outdoors ( Sky indoors ability is a joke). They need good positionning skills.
Stoker is only good at area denial / killing people in corners.

Assault mercs abilities are basically thrings instantly thrown at peoples…except Fragger , but he can still cook his nade from a safe spot…same with Javelin , she can load her rocket behind a wall and KABOOM.

I’m not against the idea of a more “polyvalent” merc, but Javelin is basically a good Assault merc with Fire support abilities for the moment …

(GatoCommodore) #27

it would be really cool if javelin shot her rocket from the back and re aim it when its on the air and acts like mini arty with 20sec cooldown

(Drac0rion) #28

The unguided vs guided rocket mode got me thinking, what if…

The unguided rocket could have tiny bit longer charge up, but also higher damage, enough to 2 shot the EV, but rather awful vs players due to the charge up.

The guided rocket could be weaker in damage and more designed for targeting players. Maybe have the explosion more close to what Fraggers nade has, to 1shot but not to instagib.

I still don’t own her, but from what I’ve experienced, everyone uses the guided mode.

(TheFpsPro27) #29

Why do people think that making javelin flinch by taking damage when using rocket launcher would make her useless? Arty and Kira flinch like hell when using their abilities but they are not useless. They also think that adding a laser to the rocket launcher would make it useless. Skyhammer, Arty and Kira have lasers and loud voices indicating the location of their abilities but it does not make them useless. They say that increasing the arming time of rocket would make it useless. Nader’s grenades take 2 seconds to explode but they are not useless.

(woodchip) #30

@TheFpsPro27 said:
Why do people think that making javelin flinch by taking damage when using rocket launcher would make her useless? Arty and Kira flinch like hell when using their abilities but they are not useless. They also think that adding a laser to the rocket launcher would make it useless. Skyhammer, Arty and Kira have lasers and loud voices indicating the location of their abilities but it does not make them useless. They say that increasing the arming time of rocket would make it useless. Nader’s grenades take 2 seconds to explode but they are not useless.

It might not make her useless, but it would still be pretty feelbad design. Kira and Arty are both long range focused mercs, with abilities that have infinite range and no range penalty. In that context, firing from safety across the map feels good, while not being reliably useful at medium and close feels fair.

Javelin’s rocket does have a range penalty, though. The further away you are the longer the travel time and the lower the odds the rocket connects. The intuition therefore is to use the rocket at medium and sometimes even close range. Making that practically impossible via interrupt would feel bad, because it would almost totally prevent players using the rocket in the way they want to use it.

There’s a good chance that adding interrupt would make Javelin feel way less fun and responsive. So for me the interrupt mechanic is a balance option of last resort.

(GatoCommodore) #31

@TheFpsPro27 said:
Why do people think that making javelin flinch by taking damage when using rocket launcher would make her useless? Arty and Kira flinch like hell when using their abilities but they are not useless. They also think that adding a laser to the rocket launcher would make it useless. Skyhammer, Arty and Kira have lasers and loud voices indicating the location of their abilities but it does not make them useless. They say that increasing the arming time of rocket would make it useless. Nader’s grenades take 2 seconds to explode but they are not useless.

javelin needs line of sight to aim the rocket while arty, kira, skyhammer dont

they just need something to laser at.

(Sefuh_FR) #32

@GatoCommodore said:

@TheFpsPro27 said:
Why do people think that making javelin flinch by taking damage when using rocket launcher would make her useless? Arty and Kira flinch like hell when using their abilities but they are not useless. They also think that adding a laser to the rocket launcher would make it useless. Skyhammer, Arty and Kira have lasers and loud voices indicating the location of their abilities but it does not make them useless. They say that increasing the arming time of rocket would make it useless. Nader’s grenades take 2 seconds to explode but they are not useless.

javelin needs line of sight to aim the rocket while arty, kira, skyhammer dont

they just need something to laser at.

Enemy is rarely in a suitable position to use walls for Arty. So, most of the time you aim at the ground , where is the enemy.
“If the enemy is in range, so are you.”
There is like 3 seconds between the moment you start to mark your arty and the arty dropping…

You don’t use your rocket before knowing where are the enemies ( or you’r using it in the wrong way ) , so you just charge your rocket behind a wall ( without anyone noticing ) and pop out at the right moment.
No time needed to aim if you pre-aim while charging.
That’s why i rarely need to use guided mode and unguided is stupidly strong…

(znuund) #33

I really think all the problems players report are solved by making:

  • a louder noise while charing
  • an increase in slow while she is charging
  • (higher dmg on EV)

she needs no nerve for instagibs. a direct hit should instagib and if you are low on health, it should instagib as well.

Yesterday I shot the rocket several times and killed here while charging several times. She is killable while she charges and if she is slow and players get attracted to her while she is charging. And if you don’t see her you can spread and make her kill only 1 merc. People tend to forget that she should be of value with her rocket. It needs to be good. Just play with the cooldown and see for yourself, she is not that big of a deal.

(XSheepieX) #34

@GatoCommodore said:

javelin needs line of sight to aim the rocket while arty, kira, skyhammer dont

they just need something to laser at.

Jav doesn’t need line of sight either. That’s what guided mode is for.

Jav falls into both assault and support and does both of them too well (maybe not considering the ev).

If Jav’s chargeup time was kept the same just it was made so that she flinches, it might stop the whole being able to rocket suicide and stop Javs playing so offensively.

(GatoCommodore) #35

@XSheepieX said:

@GatoCommodore said:

javelin needs line of sight to aim the rocket while arty, kira, skyhammer dont

they just need something to laser at.

Jav doesn’t need line of sight either. That’s what guided mode is for.

Jav falls into both assault and support and does both of them too well (maybe not considering the ev).

If Jav’s chargeup time was kept the same just it was made so that she flinches, it might stop the whole being able to rocket suicide and stop Javs playing so offensively.

it falls into the category of inaccurate since you need feels to guide it and the rocket turn speed is not exactly like a javelin with RCS module

ld2RW5a.jpg600x800

(the RCS module and the fins on real javelin allow it to turn 90 degree downwards on a span of 2 meter)