Is this possible?

(sniser) #1

Okay, I just had this idea that seems kinda exciting and the solution to oh so much pub frustration - but I don’t know if it’s possible, i.e. if the maps provide enough info to do it. But IF it is possible, you code this and publish the code changes so everybody can use it - you would be TEH HEOR!!!

It’s really simple - don’t give XP for completing objectives that aren’t needed right now (except winning ones… think gun controls on battery while the ramp isn’t yet built). You guessed correctly, this is inspired by the truck barriers on gold rush :smiley:

Are the voices you hear at the beginning of the match and when objectives are completed linked with the “map logic” or completely separate? If they are not, maybe that would be a way. Let me think this through, first with Gold Rush.

  1. The tank isn’t stolen:
    ALLIES: “Steal the tank! Construct the command post!”
    AXIS: “Don’t let them steal the tank! Construct the command post! Construct the tank barriers!”
    Yeah, that would work. If allies kept destroying the tank barriers while the tank isn’t stolen, they would just give the axis free XP and get none themselves muahaha…

  2. The tank is stolen
    ALLIES: Tank Barriers
    AXIS: Tank Barriers, Destroy the tank (I think)
    That means destroying or repairing the truck STILL doesn’t give XP. Okay, allies could focus on tank barrier two and ignore one… but that wouldn’t be a problem. But then again that’s only because of the layout of the map, so I’m already beginning to think that this might be a nice but unworkable idea… I’d rather hear from people who know more about this than zero/me - mappers and modders alike - before liking this idea too much :confused:

(No1_sonuk) #2

Kinda defeats the idea of teamwork.

While one group are after the tank, another lot go after the barriers. Makes the teams decide how to divide their force.

But IMO points of any kind are detrimental to teamwork.

(MadMaximus) #3

ok, i think i see where your going with this… and it’s because people on pubs don’t listen. soon as goldrush starts, 90% of your engineers run off to plant mines and camp barriers and don’t bother with the tank… well, unfortunately thats the way it goes on pubs. personally i wouldn’t want to play on a server that had those types of things incorporated. i mean, not getting xp for blowing the guns on battery cause the ramp isn’t built just doesnt make sense… and i think you’d find most people wouldn’t want to play on that type of server also. and if such a pub server was running a mod/converted maps like that, you would still find people not playing like a team, still running off to plant mines and repair the truck before the tank was moving, and not caring about the xp…

so i dunno… thats my 2 cents… if someone wanted to, and was so inclined, they could actually rewrite the scripts for the maps now, and just call it goldrush2.bsp, goldrush2.script and all the other stuff that goes with it, and make it in the scripts that the truck couldnt be repaired until the tank was moving and so on… same with battery… and run these all on a server… but that server would probably be empty most of the time im guessing…

(sniser) #4

Yeah. I know you can’t “enforce” teamwork, and it wouldn’t be fun either. But where do you draw the line? But we have TK’s and complaints, we have PB. The question is where to draw the line.

personally i wouldn’t want to play on a server that had those types of things incorporated. i mean, not getting xp for blowing the guns on battery cause the ramp isn’t built just doesnt make sense…
As I said, winning objectives should always give XP… and yeah, since I don’t know how objectives scripting works I don’t know if this could be tuned to make sense.

and i think you’d find most people wouldn’t want to play on that type of server also.

If it keeps the people out who play for XP that sounds like a pro, not a con…

so i dunno… thats my 2 cents… if someone wanted to, and was so inclined, they could actually rewrite the scripts for the maps now, and just call it goldrush2.bsp, goldrush2.script and all the other stuff that goes with it, and make it in the scripts that the truck couldnt be repaired until the tank was moving and so on… same with battery… and run these all on a server… but that server would probably be empty most of the time im guessing…

Ack… no no, I’m not that bothered (If I was, I’d make a “gib allies on the bridge after the bank is open” mod first haha :P) - I just like thinking about the ET source :lol:

and i think you’d find most people wouldn’t want to play on that type of server also. and if such a pub server was running a mod/converted maps like that, you would still find people not playing like a team, still running off to plant mines and repair the truck before the tank was moving, and not caring about the xp…

And I really at no point thought this would somehow magically change gameplay, I mean you could still do the “comm post dance” etc. But no one ever had the delusion that complaints would stop grievers either, but it’s still a good start. And hey, you could pop up a message saying “There are more urgend objectives right now!” or something similar - that would help a lot. Right now they prolly say “well if it wasn’t useful I wouldn’t get XP”. You could have an award for “most useless engineer” :smiley:

Kinda defeats the idea of teamwork.

While one group are after the tank, another lot go after the barriers. Makes the teams decide how to divide their force.

This totally doesn’t make any sense gameplay wise (maybe would depending on the map but Gold Rush? Heh.) and doubly not so considering the next quote -> they could still do what they want and “decide how they divide their force*” - they’d simply get no XP!

  • (are you talking about clans or “War Simulation Lala Land”? I don’t think any of this applies to clan play, and Lala Land doesn’t exist - if you know servers that are not just visited by a small core of regulars AND offer this kind of coordination please do share).

But IMO points of any kind are detrimental to teamwork.

Now that puzzles me, because that would suggest you might like the idea :stuck_out_tongue:

This wasn’t a question wether this should be implemented on all ET servers, so I don’t get the point anyway…

(SCDS_reyalP) #5

Code won’t make dumb players into good ones. The solution to dumb players is

  • explain, in case they are just new.
  • if that fails, warn them
  • if that fails, kick them.
    Or just ignore them and enjoy your game.

That said, you could certainly do this with a bit of game code and a bit of map scripting. If I wanted to do this (which I don’t. I think it is a bad idea), I would add script command which makes objectives indestructable (in the case of truck barriers) or un-repairable (in the case of the truck), and another command that turns this off. Then, have a trigger that makes those things destructable as certain goals are reached. So for example, in the section of script where the bank wall is blown open, it would call a trigger on the truck which enabled repairing. Of course, you could just control XP instead of repairing/destroying…

While you could hack it entirely in the code (by recognizing the specific map and objectives) that would be ugly, IMO.

(sniser) #6

Yeah, blah. Don’t give me advice on how to play while not even reading past the first post. Plus, I’d never consider kicking someone for being a noob. And what you said also applies to TKing, playerclip brushes and other things too. These things get implemented so that one or a few individuals spend some time on it once, and from then on all other individuals save time. Plus, I’m rarely too lazy to explain things, but I spent way to much time trying to give advice to someone who wouldn’t even notice it, too. I’d rather talk about more interesting things than the same things over and over again. Yeah, I know, binds :smiley:

Not as ugly as only working on certain maps.

I really have the feeling you’re getting me wrong here. I’m just interested in stuff you could mod (since I lack all skills except copy and paste (gfx, 3d, C etc.) I’ll have to restrict my fantasy to simple stuff :frowning: :P), it’s not that this is my pet peeve or something - if it is too harsh I change servers anyway (because allied noobs often have axis xp whores as counterparts, so even switching teams doesn’t help). Frankly, if I wanted to educate people on how to play the game better I’d make a website, ingame chat for me is for tactics, random talk, funay and verbal abuse, asking and answering questions.

The point of this wouldn’t be to “better” an individual, but to slightly decrease the chance over time of this behaviour taking place.

(SCDS_reyalP) #7

I’m sorry, I didn’t mean my post as an attack. I did read the original post… What I was trying to point out, is that those who realy only care about XP are not likely to become better team players, and those who are new, will probably learn the right thing either by polite explaination, or just through time.

Not as ugly as only working on certain maps.
[/quote]
:???: :???:
Uhm, that would, by definition, only work on certain maps. Specifically, only the ones you hard coded into your mod. Which is why it would be ugly.

It should be obvious that there is no way your code could figure out which objectives had to be completed in what order for an arbitrary map, without additional information from the script or map.

(sniser) #8

Well, as I said my question basically is “Are the voices you hear at the beginning of the match and when objectives are completed linked with the “map logic” or completely separate?” So can I take this as a no? Hmm, I didn’t even to look for it in the code myself yet oops :bored:

(Ifurita) #9

The simple anser is yes. At each event (e.g., once the tank is stolen on Oasis), the list of announcer blurbs is edited/updated thru the game script to remove items that are no longer relevent (e.g., Steal the tank).

(SCDS_reyalP) #10

look at the map scripts.

(pgh) #11

Basically just limiting the current focus of a team to what they SHOULD be doing rather than letting them do what they want? Its a bit silly. I mean, if Axis for example couldnt build the barriers until tank was stolen, then tank WAS stolen. All it would take would be to Arty or 2 the build point for barrier one etc… limiting what a play can do will lead to unwanted consiquences, and plus, with one objective/focus at all times itll just be worthless all def/off tactics. Its like CTF for Q3, its far harder to go and get the flag as it WILL be heavyly defended by 2/3 players whereas say Oasis in ET theres 2 guns, 2 objectives and you can pick (not being forced to take say one with a 3/4 man def) which means the def is spread out and theres a choice, making life easier.

(sniser) #12

Hmm. But building the tank barriers IS an objective before the tank is stolen.

Hey, I’d never support the idea if it would break even one custom map, not to mention the stock ones, so chill. Just thinking aloud, and since I don’t know yet where the map scripting gets parsed in the code I still don’t know if it’s feasible. I wouldn’t want to do it unless there was a “perfect” way to do it.

All it would take would be to Arty or 2 the build point for barrier one etc… limiting what a play can do will lead to unwanted consiquences, and plus,

I said this before - YOU CAN STILL DO WHAT YOU WANT, YOU JUST DON’T GET XP. Cov ops let engis through doors without getting XP, too. You will never hinder smart players to do what’s best for completing the team objective - but you can lower the incentive for morons to not do it (e.g. cov ops getting less xp for stealing pants, or only once every few minutes etc.).

with one objective/focus at all times itll just be worthless all def/off tactics.

LOL! First, off, this depends on the map. And even on a pure def/off map the defenders would still seek to push the attackers back. Or do you mean that instead of “worthless all def/off” you prefer “all def/off/useless”? If you want to chill or look at the scenery, go spectator.

Its like CTF for Q3, its far harder to go and get the flag as it WILL be heavyly defended by 2/3 players whereas say Oasis in ET theres 2 guns, 2 objectives and you can pick (not being forced to take say one with a 3/4 man def) which means the def is spread out and theres a choice, making life easier.

Where does this “only one objective at a time” stuff come from, it doesn’t follow from anything being said in this thread?

But yeah, you could say if people stopped fighting for the truck barrier #2 while the tank is not stolen, that would limit the objectives… the more intense ET is, the more I like it.

(Pamper) #13

There’s two kinds of objectives that “aren’t needed right now”: Those that aren’t needed yet, and those that aren’t needed anymore.

For the first kind, some people could argue that occasionally it’s good to get a head start on something, and you shouldn’t mess with forcing the way they’ll attack the map. But for things that aren’t needed anymore (like Axis destroying the bridge after the tank goes over it), then it’s obviously perfectly OK to turn off XP for that objective.

And if nothing else, this could help newbies learn what they’re supposed to do (it’d be even better if a little sign popped up “Hey idiot, everyone else is fighting on the other half of the board”)

(chavo_one) #14

All of these things can be controlled in the map script, so if the mapper wanted to restrict experience after the objective was useless or pop up a “you are a dummy sign”, then he could.