Is it just me, or does the game seem a bit spammy?


(Eox) #21

[quote=“Naonna;132978”]He 1shots all but one of the medics and can destroy any deployable with 1 nade and a couple pistol shots. Very few characters have the reliability of Fletcher’s stickies. While it makes him unique in that way, there’s very little one can do as a medium or light class to avoid getting stuck given the rate at which he regenerates them.

A very good Fletcher can decimate a team with stickies alone, if their choice of mercs is not on the heavier side. While the devs has stated numerous times that they don’t want this game to be a rock-paper-scissors match up, it still is evident that any light class attempting to combat a Fletcher (even another Fletcher) can still die instantly to something so easily thrown out and spammed.

I admit I’m a little biased and salty, but even playing as Fletcher, his damage output is a little on the ridiculous side. If there was a chance to react after a first sticky, there would be some counter play. As any <100 hp merc though, there isn’t any. Even on a non-direct stick, they do enough damage that a long-range Ahnald shot would finish the job just through a bit of chip-damage - and that’s assuming the combating merc was full-hp when they arrived to the fight.

On free rotation with Fraggers and Fletchers throwing out cooked nades and air-burst stickies, it can be difficult to make any headway. A common argument would be to ‘not play a squishy class.’ This goes against the rock-paper-scissors issue from before.

My idea for the slightly less damage on stickies is to help mitigate the problem of instantly destroying medics with 1 bomb on a 20 second cool down. [/quote]

There is already the time to fight back (travel time, time before detonation, switch time… This gives you a rather acceptable time gap to dodge them as long as you are not too close), and sticky bomb attacks are just extremely previsible (it’s the first thing a Fletcher would so right ?). Those under 100 hp mercs are also supposed to be the fastest, so the most potent mercs to dodge a projectile. If those can’t dodge a mid range sticky bomb, it’s not due to Fletcher’s “OPness”, it’s the small one that got outplayed.

Let’s add to this that Sparks is not supposed to get caught by Fletcher. Fletcher is close ranged (though Blishlok allows him to fight at longer ranges, but won’t do miracles), Sparks fight from afar. If Fletcher catches Sparks, that Sparks probably failed somewhere. Now about Aura : she’s the perfect victim for a Fletcher player. It’s by design. Aura is a close range merc with very low hop and a health station that she will probably “camp” : with such a design, there’s no surprise that Fletcher can dispose of her so quickly. Aura is hard countered by explosives and especially by Fletcher, and that’s not an issue. Aura has her strenghts and her counters, that’s called game balance. And about Phoenix : he’s mid ranged with Hochfir and KEK-10 (two extremely good SMGs) and only a direct hit will dispose of him. Same goes for Kira and Proxy, Kira being even harder to fight because long range and heavy hitting guns, and actually a potent counter to Fletcher.

Now about your idea : it’s terrible. 20 sec CD on a sticky that use to run a 8-9 ish seconds CD ? Seriously that’s nuts. An extremely heavy nerf that is not even needed since sticky bombs are plainfully counterable, and are supposed to come numerous and oftenly for the sake of Fletcher’s versatility. Keeping your distances and dodging stickies is seriously not a big deal, especially if you consider how fast your characters are supposed to move in DB (aside from the heavier ones). I wouldn’t mind the damage reduction as long as it does not affect the direct hit damage, though I am still opposed to it since I consider that a nerf is not needed, but such a heavy CD nerf is totally overkill.


(FalC_16) #22

[quote=“Eox;131847”]Arty spammy ? Well, that’s brand new.

Also if you have a grudge about spamming overall, why don’t you have a grudge against Nader ?[/quote]

Arty must be balanced with Skyhammer. Skyhammer’s airstrike is ridiculously strong even though the cooldown is 1 min. 2 direct hit salvos won’t disable the EV while 1 airstrike does.

I wouldn’t touch Arty at all for now.


(Naonna) #23

Only sparks is meant to be used at long range, so that argument is sound: I’m referring more to the use of Phoenix and Aura. - As for your ‘travel time is enough time to flee’, I call b.s. I’ve played Fletcher often. Consistently, it doesn’t mater how much the person moves. any 100 hp or less merc WILL instantly die if they attempt to run back to their team (with the exception that they turn a corner BEFORE I’ve actually thrown a sticky) and will also die if they try fighting head-on. The only option they have is hope that they get a shotgun-head shot before the sticky detonates via air bursting. It’s rare to ever need to pull out a gun as Fletcher. His special ability seems more like a primary weapon with burst damage.

The fact that Fletcher can toss stickies out with almost no penalty for missing is awful: he’ll hit one even if used by an unskilled player. If they didn’t hit quite so hard, I’d be fine with the entire concept. Either lower the damage a smidgen on the stickies or reduce how often he can throw these out. Please.


(vdll) #24

Wan’t a viable rework for Pineapple Juggler? Make it so Fletcher stickies cant stick to augmented target, in addition to ability deflect and throw the projectiles back.


(Eox) #25

[quote=“Naonna;133184”]Only sparks is meant to be used at long range, so that argument is sound: I’m referring more to the use of Phoenix and Aura. - As for your ‘travel time is enough time to flee’, I call b.s. I’ve played Fletcher often. Consistently, it doesn’t mater how much the person moves. any 100 hp or less merc WILL instantly die if they attempt to run back to their team (with the exception that they turn a corner BEFORE I’ve actually thrown a sticky) and will also die if they try fighting head-on. The only option they have is hope that they get a shotgun-head shot before the sticky detonates via air bursting. It’s rare to ever need to pull out a gun as Fletcher. His special ability seems more like a primary weapon with burst damage.

The fact that Fletcher can toss stickies out with almost no penalty for missing is awful: he’ll hit one even if used by an unskilled player. If they didn’t hit quite so hard, I’d be fine with the entire concept. Either lower the damage a smidgen on the stickies or reduce how often he can throw these out. Please.[/quote]

Well, we have a problem here, because I managed to flee a lot of time against rather good Fletcher players and manged to dodge Stickies as well while using slower mercs than Aura and Phoenix and faster mercs than Phoenix alike. Do we both exploit the parkour system ? Also, having tried the Hochfir and KEK-10, I can confirm that those weapons are much more ranged than they look. I was even able to down a Vassili with the KEK-10 almost from the other side of Chapel, no kidding.

Phoenix won’t instantly die if he tries to flee, because that would suppose he got a stuck sticky bomb on him, which is rather unlikely against a fleeing target. If the Fletcher managed to stick a sticky bomb on you, you got outplayed. Stickies have a short explosion radius and travel time (splash radius is even shorter than Nader’s grenades since the CW update). So assuming that they’re unavoidable is kind of excessive. You can at least expect to dodge them partially : meanwhile you would have done a lot of damage to the Fletcher in front of you with your SMG, giving you the upper hand, assuming that you have a potent aim.

Also if you try to catch Fletcher with Aura, don’t be surprised that you got wrecked hard. As I said, Aura is the absolute worst character for dealing against Fletcher. You just can’t face him if he sees you coming. Fletcher is Aura’s hardest counter : with Aura you can only catch Fletcher by rushing at him and it’s never a good idea to rush at Fletcher. @Sniff will confirm it as well. If you’re the kind of Aura who lays too much at her station as well, you’ll have a hard time, as explosives are the best weapon against a healing station.

I have a friend that plays Aura very oftenly and can deal with me potently : what he does is never face me head front. He’ll just try to catch me from behind or when I suspect him the least. If he succeed (and he rather oftenly does), I never have the time to pull out a Sticky Bomb, and even if I could it would be too dangerous for myself to blow sticky bombs to a target that harasses me at very close range. That’s how you would deal against a Blishlok Fletcher. Shotgun Fletchers will be harder to deal against that way, but will be even easier to down with a SMG and higher ranged mercs like Phoenix if you don’t come too near.


(_Sniff_) #26

OMG THERE ARE BOBMS IN A GAME CALLED DIRTY BOMB. HOW COULD A GAME MADE BY SPLASH DAMAGE EVER BE POPULATED BY EXPLOSIVE CHARACTERS?!?!?!?!?!?!??!!??!

Seriously though. Yes, Fletcher has bombs. Yes, Fletcher kills things.

No, he is not over powered. Bombs are easily juked. Many players don’t take advantage of bomb travel time or the ability to stop pressing W and go with ASD instead. Any of those keys will easily help bring distance between a Fletcher while also dodging bombs.

I know this because I play against N8o who is better than I am at Fletcher. You get good at dodging bombs. (or die) In the same way N8o is a beast at dodging my bombs. It’s very hard to hit a target who knows they don’t want to be hit and will take evasive actions. Missing even once has dire penalties, especially when they are already dodging bombs to begin with.

Ignoring the dodging you can shoot Fletcher way more than he can shoot you. Even as Aura or Phoenix. Who Cosmic and N8o both play. I get killed by both mercs plenty.

Mid range is his biggest weakness. So is gibbing. You are arguing that Phoenix and Aura are weak against Fletcher. Consider that because gibbing is his weakness you can draw out medics to the promise of lots of points and a not dead team.

What do you think you can do as Fletcher to prevent this? Throw a bomb on a heavily distracted tunnel visioning medic?

But what do as medic!? Flank the Fletcher. Don’t approach him head on. Approach with teammates at the same time. ADAD around his explosives, use jumping to your advantage, Play corners and get him to waste his bombs. He only has 3. And the radius of the splash damage really isn’t all that great. You might get some chip damage but you can mitigate a load of Fletchers damage by dodging.

You don’t head on attack every merc. W M+1 is the easiest way to die, especially against Fletcher.

Mask your movements and don’t be an easy target. This shit isn’t hard to learn it’s just not normal to have to learn in a fps. ASD and walljumping exist for more mercs than just Fletcher.

On an unrelated note sparks will mess Fletchers shit up. Really small frame, really fast, and can revive from a distance. The worst thing in the world is when you take out a team but can’t gib them in time then Sparks comes around and revives their friends.

Or more annoyingly revives them as they die.

Fletcher has 3 bombs and can throw all three to kill maybe three people. Then he has 21 seconds until he is full up again. He can not compete with a competent sparks player.

Again I look to Cosmic whupping n8o and I’s ass when we play against him as Fletcher while he is Sparks.


(Amerika) #27

I should make a video on how you counter Sparks, Vassili (Moa and FEL IX), Fletcher, Nader, Fragger and Phantom via movement. All of them require you to do different and specific things but you can make a good player look stupid a good portion of the time if you don’t fall into specific patterns that they look for. I’ll give some examples.

Sparks: You drastically drop her chance to nail you with a fully charged shot if you vary your movement pattern. Seriously, play kind of drunk if you HAVE to approach a sparks. Most Sparks players are waiting for you to cross into their crosshair to fire. If you stagger your movement and be unpredictable and you also try not to stay level for easy headshots (regular jumps and wall jumps help a lot) drastically increase your chances of only taking a body shot if you’re hit at all. Then they go into panic mode and the Reviver is a low DPS weapon. I have have over a decade and a half of experience avoiding rail shots using similar patterns in Q3. It works and you have more tools and more of an advantage typically against Sparks than you do in Q3. Also, if you have a weapon that doesn’t have a long engage distance, don’t engage unless you’re at the proper distance. Engaging at long distance only works to her favor since she’ll take a few hits, not be dead and simply use her speed/medpacks to get away. Every good Sparks runs like this.

Fletcher: Never follow him. Never fight him straight up. Go one direction then immediately change the other way if he has stickies out to bait a throw. Murder him with a gun while he tries (and hopefully fails). He either has to make a low % play to win or you easily win. He will still accidentally stick you while trying to hit somebody else though…it’s the nature of the beast. One of the biggest issues I have with Fletcher is almost all of them jump off of walls non-stop even if there is no chance of them winning which can delay your kill as you mostly will only get body shots. He has a good health pool which means teammates can show up and murder you. Also, headphones/turn off music. Always listen for the sticky bomb sounds.

Fragger: If he’s not firing at you or suddenly stops firing, especially if they duck behind a corner, move from where you are at ASAP. This will stop even the best players hitting you with grenades consistently as long as you’re paying attention.

Nader: Close the gap at a Nader who insists on using a grenade launcher as a primary. It’s the dumbest thing a Nader player can do yet even some of the “good” ones play her that way going for low % shots. At best they hit you with a nade that doesn’t explode and you take 25 damage and you down them easily.

Vassili: Same concept as Sparks but easier since he can’t heal himself nor does he have her speed. He also has to rely on quickly scoping which due to mechanics is lower % than what Sparks has. I wouldn’t rush at a PDP user though. Wait for them to “pow pow pow” at somebody else and turn a corner and shoot because they can more easily quick/noscope you.

Melee Phantoms: You hear their armor because they got too close and were sprinting at you. Always long jump in a random direction. Basically, the time that it takes to hear the armor, long jump and spin and acquire means that many times they took their melee shot and missed/didn’t kill and you light them up. I do this even if I hear friendly Phantoms around because there is no way to distinguish between them and it costs you little to make it a reflex. Now if the Phantom was smart enough to uncloak and dome you with a gun before you could hear the buzz then, well, not much you can do about that.


(Naonna) #28

More interested specifically on the Fletcher one: only one i have true issue with. Phantom’s too loud to be a problem. - The kek-10 scares me a little, though.


(vdll) #29

Great post, @Amerika . Regarding Phantoms, we really need different sounds for cloaked teammates and enemies. Can’t think of any reason why we shouldn’t.


(Drac0rion) #30

Isn’t there already enough counterplay vs Phantoms? Do we really need him to have that sound?


(Amerika) #31

Yes because he is not a melee character. If you aren’t trying to melee the sound becomes mostly a non-issue and can be a great distraction even.


(vdll) #32

Cloak sound is not a game breaker since anywhere near the frontlines there is too much noise anyway. Because of this Phantom is kind of encouraged to engage in team fights instead of stalking lonely snipers (wich will hear him perfectly well).


(Drac0rion) #33

Against Big Ears augment, the noise is heard from a rather long distance, only reason why it really bothers me. Just test it yourself, it’s rather ridiculous how clearly you can hear it from a distance.

And I really would not say Phantom would pick a team fight over a safe 1vs1.
In somewhere like 7vs7 or 8vs8, sure the noise is less noticeable, but try it in competitive or execution where players will be more cautious towards easily noticeable threats.

I’m probably one of those rare Phantoms with extremely low katana kills and still it’s the noise about his ability that bothers me the most.


(vdll) #34

I don’t play competitive and don’t care about execution, but one way or another, merc without utility or stellar damage output is a waste in 5 men team.


(Amerika) #35

[quote=“Dracorion;134475”]Against Big Ears augment, the noise is heard from a rather long distance, only reason why it really bothers me. Just test it yourself, it’s rather ridiculous how clearly you can hear it from a distance.

And I really would not say Phantom would pick a team fight over a safe 1vs1.
In somewhere like 7vs7 or 8vs8, sure the noise is less noticeable, but try it in competitive or execution where players will be more cautious towards easily noticeable threats.

I’m probably one of those rare Phantoms with extremely low katana kills and still it’s the noise about his ability that bothers me the most.[/quote]

If he didn’t have it then they would have to remove his ability to attack while bringing his armor down. If he didn’t have noise or it was drastically reduced then players would have almost no chance and you’d just randomly die to Phantom players without a way to counter. The sound and being able to see him somewhat easily while sprinting is how he is countered while allowing him still to attack directly out of his armor. Also, if it really bothers you as a player get the loadout with Sneaky as it reduces the sound quite a bit (I’ve been told this by multiple people but not verified it myself though).


(vdll) #36

That the only card with sneaky, without katana, unfortunatelly:


(Drac0rion) #37

I mean, his invisibility is already easy to spot, he can’t really fight every merc head on, Phantom should be the nr.1 merc to flank in most situations. Not only do you have to carefully sneak by with stealth on, but you also have to worry about not being heard behind corners.
For example, snipers don’t have this kind of counterplay, if you’re unaware of the sniper you can easily be headshotted and die instantly. But Phantom has to sneak all the way around and get into melee range if you mean his katana makes players randomly die. There isn’t a counter for every other merc when they flank around and Phantom in my opinion should have the advantage on that.

I really don’t find his katana do be that strong to need that much counterplay. At best he can take mercs 1vs1, trying to force a 1vs2 might be pushing your luck in most cases.


(vdll) #38

Apparently, whining of it’s victims was strong enough argument for devs.


(Amerika) #39

Well, there were thousands of posts on this forum, SD’s forum, Reddit, Steam forums and Steam reviews along with Twitter about how people didn’t like to be instantly killed with no chance to counter. I’d personally say that’s a valid concern from the player base.

Stealth characters, in all games, are divisive because they always get to initiate combat. And if they are too powerful they are walking gods who get to execute people they want when they want and there is little the other player can do about it. This causes a massive rift among the player base for obvious reasons. Some people enjoy being able to just walk up to anybody and right click and get a “skillful” kill but most people who are playing against it don’t like it and many who feel like they are forced to play in that manner also don’t like it. Hence his fairly quick change which SD has gone on record about it being a huge regret that he was released in that state in the first place.

Now you actually have to be smart to play with him. You want to actually be sneaky? You have to know your distance to players and their potential to hear your armor (listening for firefights covers your movement). Or if you want to sneak up on them from behind know that canceling your armor is what you should be doing. Or know when to sit in a dark corner and don’t try to hide directly in front of people (I see this so often it’s hilarious). And learn to use your guns to quickly headshot people from safety as well leaving yourself an escape route so you aren’t just a 1:1 trade at best when you go chasing people with a melee weapon.

Phantom requires intelligent play now and probably the most out of any merc. His only real weakness is how little he contributes to the team in smaller games compared to other choices (which SD said they are looking into fixing). Some people are so focused on using something that is just a cricket bat replacement for him instead of using his whole kit to succeed. Then they believe him to be weak based on that.


(Laionidas) #40

[quote=“Cappe;131866”]As a mainly Arty player, Arty’s ability can be somewhat spammy but to get good strikes you need good knowledge of the maps and get the timing and placement right.
IMHO fletcher is way spammier than Arty, now that he’s on free rotation you see stickies everywhere and get instakilled most of the time.[/quote]

I think it’s a case of him being difficult to master, but once you do,…

Played against an Arty yesterday and it was just ridiculous. Also, he didn’t even know the map that well, but at one point the defense team got driven back when delivering the EMP charges, and he’d just spam the spawn ramp. Defense just couldn’t get out anymore.