Instagib

[Humbugsen]

[QUOTE=LiNkzr;525102]it’s too easy to get body shots, headshots aren’t that easy in comp. if anything just change map layouts a bit. Insta-gibbing is pretty nice against this 3 fragger / 2medic meta, wouldn’t probably play competitive if sniper wasn’t what it was.

Gibbing should be easier in general.

Also pub sniping is way different from competitive sniper against good teams you don’t really get to do much unless you are really good. You already have 3 different mechanics to make you pretty much immune to headshots. Crouch-spamming, adad + aimpunch so use them.[/QUOTE]

The good snipers will totally stomp every pub, make newcomers ragequit and there will be no players left for competitive.

There shouldn’t be any merc metas at all… it should just be personal preference.
I personally think they need to screw the moba idea of the game and balance the game more around 1v1… There is just not enough depth and its mainly about aiming/fps skills. Also there is no place between dota, lol, overwatch, hots etc…
If kills feel cheap and deaths feel unfair, the game is no fun for me.

crouch spamming etc only works if you see the sniper first.
aimpunch should be reduced or removed i think but that’s another topic.

sorry for slight offtopic there

[Protekt1]

[QUOTE=Humbugsen;525111]The good snipers will totally stomp every pub, make newcomers ragequit and there will be no players left for competitive.
there shouldn’t be any merc metas at all… it should just be personal preference.
I personally think they need to screw the moba idea of the game and balance the game more around 1v1… There is just not enough depth and its mainly about aiming/fps skills. Also there is no place between dota, lol, overwatch, hots etc…
If kills feel cheap and deaths feel unfair, the game is no fun for me.

crouch spamming etc only works if you see the sniper first.
aimpunch should be reduced or removed i think but that’s another topic.

sorry for slight offtopic there :D[/QUOTE]

I think you miss the entire point of the game if you think it should be balanced around 1v1. This is a team based game. And yes, there needs to be a strategy revolving around the mercs you pick. It adds depth to the game beyond just twitch shooting, tracking, or just out skill shooting the other team. It also feeds into the team strategy of the game. You plan your attack, when they successfully defend using xyz, you try to increase your team’s effective strength against that strategy by rotating a merc or two.

If you’re really looking for a 1v1 game, or a game that isn’t based heavily around teamwork, I think you might wanna start looking for another game cause DB will never be that game for you.

Also, why does a sniper death feel unfair? They aimed and played well when they headshot you.

[Humbugsen]

[QUOTE=Protekt1;525112]I think you miss the entire point of the game if you think it should be balanced around 1v1. This is a team based game. And yes, there needs to be a strategy revolving around the mercs you pick. It adds depth to the game beyond just twitch shooting, tracking, or just out skill shooting the other team. It also feeds into the team strategy of the game. You plan your attack, when they successfully defend using xyz, you try to increase your team’s effective strength against that strategy by rotating a merc or two.

If you’re really looking for a 1v1 game, or a game that isn’t based heavily around teamwork, I think you might wanna start looking for another game cause DB will never be that game for you.

Also, why does a sniper death feel unfair? They aimed and played well when they headshot you.[/QUOTE]

I’m not looking for a 1v1 game. i played enemy territory for ages and loved it, so I wasn’t really a noob when i started this game.
My obvious merc choice: Sawbonez. I realized he is more of a support in this game instead of the rambo he was in ET and i thought that’s ok. I tried to stick with my teammates, support them and learn the game, until I realized that’s not the way how DB plays, you run into fights all the time (1v1,1v2 etc.) and your teammates don’t stick together. The maps are just not made for this. I killed every proxi easy, but that fragger which i need 7 headshots for… there is just no chance (thats why I said deaths feel unfair). I see this can still be great fun with a fix team in competitive mode, but not for casual mode.
Newcomers will either ragequit or complain about balance.

Oh and about the sniper death it’s just frustating, not unfair, but really frustrating. And look at vasilli… He is ZERO teamplay oriented apart from his wallhack sensor, he just a pure instagib machine.

The game just don’t even require teamwork… there is a voice chat in game, but I’ve never heard anyone using it. It’s not needed at all.
I still think better maps would solve every problem i have with this game

[JBRAA]

Learn to counter it / L2P.

Anything is OP when playing against newbies

[Humbugsen]

[QUOTE=JBRAA;525116]Learn to counter it / L2P.

Anything is OP when playing against newbies[/QUOTE]

yes I learned already: If i see a fragger with sawbonez, and i know he is at least as good as i am, i just run (not hide cause grenade).
I can’t stack medpacks, i can’t heal in fight, I can’t hide, there is simply no counterplay.
fragger vs sawbonez equal skilllevel and fragger will win 9/10.
There is one thing that’s common for ET and DB, aiming matters most, and in ET skill decided the outcome of fights, but i don’t feel like that for DB

[PixelTwitch]

[QUOTE=Humbugsen;525117]yes I learned already: If i see a fragger with sawbonez, and i know he is at least as good as i am, i just run (not hide cause grenade).
I can’t stack medpacks, i can’t heal in fight, I can’t hide, there is simply no counterplay.
fragger vs sawbonez equal skilllevel and fragger will win 9/10.
There is one thing that’s common for ET and DB, aiming matters most, and in ET skill decided the outcome of fights, but i don’t feel like that for DB[/QUOTE]

This is one of my top 3 concerns with Dirty Bomb…

Far too simple… No counter play, hardly no synergy and stuff like that…
HOWEVER!!! On your point about Fragger vs Sawbones, that is how it is supposed to be…

In this situation you don’t lose because of balance, you lose because your not behind your teams heavy hitters…
Because Sawbones + Fragger will always win vs a single Fragger…

Counter Play is more referring to how badly designed the Frag Nades are in this game…
You have no way to avoid instant death due to cooking, accuracy and damage…
Realistically the Frag Nades should have been given double the range and half the MAX damage…
Even throw in 3x explosive damage multiplier on deployable objects and downed players…
All of a sudden you have the choice to hide + heal as a sawbones…
Clear an area as Fragger for a full team push…
AND you have removed the frustration from a instagib…
WIN WIN & WIN…

[INF3RN0]

Snipers seem OP because when a really good player uses it against lesser skilled players they rack up frags… yet they will still get more frags with most other mercs. I don’t understand this really… even when a good sniper is having the game of his life he’s still mid-fragger and more often than not will be forced into a different role against an equally good team. The insta-gib allows him to be a play maker, which is not a bad thing at all. Mines, grenades, airstrikes, etc all insta-gib and take much less skill. If we’re worried about the rate of insta-gibbing so much, then maybe put a c/d on insta-gibs for the sniper so that he has to prioritize his targets.

[LiNkzr]

Snipers seem OP because when a really good player uses it against lesser skilled players they rack up frags.

This so much! Sniping should never be balanced based on public game play (in my opinion the game shouldn’t balanced AT ALL based on pub play), but I understand the need to have certain balance in public for people to have fun

I think past 2-3 days there has been a lot of discussion about insta-gibbing and I still think it should stay, maybe i’m just biased though. I could be fine with some nerfs to sniper (and some changes to his heartbeat sensor). I know some people here play a lot of competitive and they know that even aura isn’t that good because fragger is totally dominating this current system, we seriously need more mercs in the game, no doubt about it. I’d rather talk about insta-gibbing after 2-3 mercs are in meta and fragger isn’t so relevant. I feel like Vassili currently deals well with them now.

And actually rather than look at Vassili why aren’t we looking maps that allow good snipers to gover 2/3rd of a map? In trainyard first obj I go under bridge in comp and I can instantly tell where the 5 enemies are going and I can basically cover the mid / left area until they get too close or start hitting me too much.

This game is slowly becoming so boring to play.

[INF3RN0]

[QUOTE=PixelTwitch;525127]T

In this situation you don’t lose because of balance, you lose because your not behind your teams heavy hitters…
Because Sawbones + Fragger will always win vs a single Fragger…
[/QUOTE]

While I agree with most everything you’ve said this isn’t always the case. I’m usually playing solo against the fragger+sawbones combo, but I will say the only consistent counter to it atm is aggro fragger or insta-gib vasili. Of course if you land a good nade it’s a double kill or enough damage to push, otherwise I’ve gotten the jump on fragger+saws (and good ones like Art1er+syku) and still been able to kill them both before/after the revive. If they are playing very passive and corner camping, then it can be near impossible- but fortunately most fraggers let it get the better of themselves at some point in the game and over extend. The combo is mathematically superior, but with the right combination of smart play and aggressive brute force it can be broken- but of course that’s entirely reliant on them making mistakes and the solo aggressor hitting all their headshots. So in that sense I think your statement is very valid, not to mention how much of a pain it can be to play another merc against a really good fragger even 1on1.

I personally think the game needs to focus less attention on creating new mercs/content and instead focus on adding a synergy/counter meta. I think it’s the missing piece that will prevent DB from being recognized as a unique experience and reduce the repetitive game play. Yes we want high aim skill fragging, but we also want opportunities to be creative in other ways.

[LiNkzr]

We seriously need new content and mercs, though if the mercs cost what they cost now it’s what ever and this game will be a placeholder until overwatch comes out.

I think bushwhacker didn’t have the kind of impact I hoped when new merc is released but there are few mercs that I’d like to see

[tangoliber]

[QUOTE=INF3RN0;525131]
I personally think the game needs to focus less attention on creating new mercs/content and instead focus on adding a synergy/counter meta. I think it’s the missing piece that will prevent DB from being recognized as a unique experience and reduce the repetitive game play. Yes we want high aim skill fragging, but we also want opportunities to be creative in other ways.[/QUOTE]

Agree 100%

[LiNkzr]

Agree 100%

I agree even more, 110%

[Szakalot]

Just nerf them fragger nades. And slow down reload on all weapons.

[JBRAA]

[QUOTE=Humbugsen;525117]yes I learned already: If i see a fragger with sawbonez, and i know he is at least as good as i am, i just run (not hide cause grenade).
I can’t stack medpacks, i can’t heal in fight, I can’t hide, there is simply no counterplay.
fragger vs sawbonez equal skilllevel and fragger will win 9/10.
There is one thing that’s common for ET and DB, aiming matters most, and in ET skill decided the outcome of fights, but i don’t feel like that for DB[/QUOTE]

Sawbones is a support / semi support-roamer. He is not a rambo.
If you play support-role as a rambo, then you gonna have a bad time,
If you play support-role as support, then you gonna have a better time.

If you wanna go rambo/solo, go a solo-role fitted for frontlines or roaming support. Use abilities and environment to your advantage.
If you wanna go sawbones, dont go solo.

Roughy a bit like this in generall (not per map specified):
FRONTLINE: Fragger, Proxie
MIDDLE: Sawbones, Aura, Buchwhacker
BACK: Arty, Skyhammer, Aura
BASELINE: Vassilli, Arty
ROAMING support (moving): Sawbones, Aura
Roaming support is moving, but you stay behind your teammates, not going rambo.

If one over extend your intended place on the field, you gonna have less good time.

TL DR:
L2P / Rock paper scissors

• Complaining shotgun is weak on long distance is the same thing. It has intended use where it is strong, and areas where it useless.
• Complaining sniper is strong on long distance, is the same thing. It has intended use where it is strong, and areas where it useless.

[tangoliber]

[QUOTE=JBRAA;525145]Sawbones is a support / semi support-roamer.
If you play support-sole (soft) as a soldier (hard), then you gonna have a bad time, due to not knowing how to play.
[/QUOTE]

This is how I prefer it to be. I don’t want every class to be equally capable in terms of gunplay.

I would hope that a Sawbonez and a Fragger would have great advantages over a single player. (Though there should still be opportunity for a great play).

[JBRAA]

This is how I prefer it to be. I don’t want every class to be equally capable in terms of gunplay.

Exactly right

[Humbugsen]

[QUOTE=JBRAA;525145]Sawbones is a support / semi support-roamer. He is not a rambo.
If you play support-role as a rambo, then you gonna have a bad time,
If you play support-role as support, then you gonna have a better time.

If you wanna go rambo/solo, go a solo-role fitted for frontlines or roaming support. Use abilities and environment to your advantage.
If you wanna go sawbones, dont go solo.

Roughy a bit like this in generall (not per map specified):
FRONTLINE: Fragger, Proxie
MIDDLE: Sawbones, Aura, Buchwhacker
BACK: Arty, Skyhammer, Aura
BASELINE: Vassilli, Arty
ROAMING support (moving): Sawbones, Aura
Roaming support is moving, but you stay behind your teammates, not going rambo.

If one over extend your intended place on the field, you gonna have less good time.

TL DR:
L2P / Rock paper scissors

• Complaining shotgun is weak on long distance is the same thing. It has intended use where it is strong, and areas where it useless.
• Complaining sniper is strong on long distance, is the same thing. It has intended use where it is strong, and areas where it useless.[/QUOTE]

The thing is, in pubs you CAN NOT rely on teammates, i died SOOOOOOO MANY countless times because i revived a teammate who was just a bad player or newcomer or whatever… Being a support is great, but only if you have a good team (you see that a lot in dota, almost no one wants to play support there). And no one plays a shooter to throw some medpacks.
Also in my previous post i stated that i tried to be 100% teamplayer but it didn’t work, because of the map design.
If you look at aura, she actually is a really great rambo with her healing station + shotgun.

Imagine there are really mass players, and skill is almost equal in ranked matches, the merc choice will be really important, but you can switch your merc after every death… it just doesn’t make sense at all.
For rock paper scissors there is not enough depth in the game.

tldr: balance around 1v1, or give good maps that actually require and allow teamplay!!!

[JBRAA]

i died SOOOOOOO MANY countless times because i revived a teammate who was just a bad player or newcomer or whatever…

For sawbones:
Dont revive bad players (who die cause they overextended) / Dont suicide revide. Its Lose/Lose if both of you die.
Find players who knows how to play and follow them around. Be their personal medic. Talk on VOIP. If a good player get greedy and overextend, say “go back” on VOIP and if he wont fkc him and go back to wait new spawning players, and attack as a whole team.

Worst part with newbs is when they go in 2vs6 or 3v8. Its always better to go in with force (more players) and from different directions at once.

If good players are nowhere to be seen, support is not needed, then you need to change to rambo class and show to kill people or skyhammer to push back enemies baseline.

If match making with Skill Rating Points will work, then a skilled player should find it possible to support easier
Or get more DB friends on steam, and go play together on public.

[bacon1]

[QUOTE=PixelTwitch;525075]Just too have a quick say…

I feel that if you change this you need to also change how revives + revive shields work.
Currently due to the RoF of the sniper rifle, it would be literally impossible to kill 2 medics without the instagib.

Infact if fighting on a corner and the enemy has a medic backing them up. It would also be physically impossible to gib him due to the RoF.

this would make playing a sniper very frustrating as well as making them none viable in competitive play.[/QUOTE]

You seem to be forgetting that the sniper is a support class. He is not a soldier. If you want to take on two medics then you should be playing as Fragger.
One of the many, many, frustrating things about this game is how somebody can be hopping around half way across the map and kill+gib me in my spawn with one shot. That’s way too OP.

[Hundopercent]

I say keep the gib but it should take 2 HS to kill. That would solve the problem. Head shot can be 80% HP.