IF Vasilli's insta-gib is removed - suggestions to re-balance Vassili's bolt actions


(ProfPlump) #1

I’ve heard some talk and rumours about the devs thinking about removing the insta-gib from both the MOA and the FEL-IX (just to clarify - this means that a headshot will not only instantly kill an opponent, but will make them instantly UNREVIVEABLE). I can see the logic in this, as the best Vasilli players are simply able to dominate enemy teams with headshots, but I also think that completely removing his insta-gib abilities would make the merc completely pointless.

If the MOA and the FEL-IX had no insta-gib, their well-aimed headshots would put their opponents in a reviveable state and give the enemy team a total of about 1.5 or 2 seconds to revive that player before they can rechamber another bullet and then fire a second shot into the downed merc to finish them. This would effectively negate the reward for being accurate with Vassili’s shots, as any good medic on the enemy team would simply revive them before they could be gibbed.

Here are my solutions:

Take the insta-gib away ONLY FROM THE MOA while giving it back its 6 round magazine, and at the same time drop the FEL-IX’s magazine size to 4 and reduce the firerate.

That way the new players can be satisfied with the MOA which allows them to work up their sniping skills with a gun that won’t also allow the most efficient players to abuse it like they can at the moment. Meanwhile, the more advanced players, who recognise the amazing value of the insta-gib, would gravitate over to the FEL-IX despite its lower firerate and mag size because if you can be consistent with it you can be very effective (but not as effective as they would be with the MOA in its current insta-gibbing state). The FEL-IX would then become much less of a pot-shot sniper (and much less than the MOA can be) and would require the user to be more patient with their shots, meaning that it would become even more reliant on skill and placement.

OR
(and that’s an OR, not an AND, bear in mind)

Change the way that insta-gib works. The current system immediately and permanently renders headshotted opponents unreviveable. My suggestion would be to make those insta-gibbing weapons cause those players who are headshotted to become unreviveable for 3 whole seconds while they are on the ground and AFTER those 3 seconds they become reviveable again. Note that in this 3 second stage the player would still be able to be finished, just not reviveable.

This way, the Vassili has the opportunity to take a second shot to gib the downed player, but means that a) he has to peek again and b) he has to use a second bullet out of his magazine, which causes him to need to reload more often. This would mean that the teammates of the downed player would have a chance to stop the Vassili from taking that second shot (by suppressing him). Also, this would mean that Vassili would not be able to effectively kill AND gib 3 or more enemies with the same magazine, as he only has a maximum of 5 bullets (assuming you’re using the MOA), so you wouldn’t end up with Vassili completely halving the enemy team in several seconds.

It might also be necessary for there to be a special icon appearing above mercs who are in this 3 second stage, perhaps in the shape of a timer that shows how much time is left until they become reviveable. Otherwise the downed players medics would get confused and frustrated while trying to revive him in that 3 second period.


(Grave_Knight) #2

Actually they did change how gib works, that’s why instagib on the sniper rifle doesn’t work. 150 damage isn’t enough to kill a player and gib them from full health (even on Aura). Not exactly sure how much down-health players have though I suspect it’s either twice their health or just a flat 100 (which means melee weapons will do at least 200 damage to downed players or 100, probably just 100 though). So you can still instagib hurt players you just can do it on players with full HP.

I do suspect there will be a change in the revive mechanic, but who knows when we’ll see it. I suspect it’ll be in a hotfix after the Contamination Wars Update or the next Fine Tuning patch. Very least Sparks’ revive mechanic will undergo a change.


(ProfPlump) #3

[quote=“Grave Knight;97789”]Actually they did change how gib works, that’s why instagib on the sniper rifle doesn’t work. 150 damage isn’t enough to kill a player and gib them from full health (even on Aura). Not exactly sure how much down-health players have though I suspect it’s either twice their health or just a flat 100 (which means melee weapons will do at least 200 damage to downed players or 100, probably just 100 though). So you can still instagib hurt players you just can do it on players with full HP.

I do suspect there will be a change in the revive mechanic, but who knows when we’ll see it. I suspect it’ll be in a hotfix after the Contamination Wars Update or the next Fine Tuning patch. Very least Sparks’ revive mechanic will undergo a change.[/quote]

Well I must admit I haven’t played the MOA in a while actually - been running with my Cobalt FEL-X. So if they changed how gibbing works, they’ve only changed it for the MOA, which is good.


(ProfPlump) #4

Good to see people simply disliking my post and leaving without making any suggestions or reasons why they disliked it… Why do you even bother…


(ProfPlump) #5

[quote=“Grave Knight;97789”]Actually they did change how gib works, that’s why instagib on the sniper rifle doesn’t work. 150 damage isn’t enough to kill a player and gib them from full health (even on Aura). Not exactly sure how much down-health players have though I suspect it’s either twice their health or just a flat 100 (which means melee weapons will do at least 200 damage to downed players or 100, probably just 100 though). So you can still instagib hurt players you just can do it on players with full HP.

I do suspect there will be a change in the revive mechanic, but who knows when we’ll see it. I suspect it’ll be in a hotfix after the Contamination Wars Update or the next Fine Tuning patch. Very least Sparks’ revive mechanic will undergo a change.[/quote]

Okay I just played multiple games with both the FEL-IX and the MOA and can confirm that they still insta-gib… Not sure why you think that its already been removed…


(Grave_Knight) #6

[quote=“ProfPlump;97882”][quote=“Grave Knight;97789”]Actually they did change how gib works, that’s why instagib on the sniper rifle doesn’t work. 150 damage isn’t enough to kill a player and gib them from full health (even on Aura). Not exactly sure how much down-health players have though I suspect it’s either twice their health or just a flat 100 (which means melee weapons will do at least 200 damage to downed players or 100, probably just 100 though). So you can still instagib hurt players you just can do it on players with full HP.

I do suspect there will be a change in the revive mechanic, but who knows when we’ll see it. I suspect it’ll be in a hotfix after the Contamination Wars Update or the next Fine Tuning patch. Very least Sparks’ revive mechanic will undergo a change.[/quote]

Okay I just played multiple games with both the FEL-IX and the MOA and can confirm that they still insta-gib… Not sure why you think that its already been removed…[/quote]

I didn’t mean the current build. I meant the Contamination War build.


(watsyurdeal) #7

Well, personally I feel like the MoA should at least deal enough damage to down a Fragger and Thunder, but Splash may disagree.

Regardless, I like the direction they are going if I understand it correctly. At least now it’s possible to gib someone more quickly since explosive damage will bleed into gib health, making Fletcher and Nader more potent.

That said, I feel like the Fe Lix would need a substantial buff still.

I think the sway while moving should be removed entirely, just eradicated, and the Fe Lix should get buffed to deal 90 damage at least. This way no only does it down a light class with a headshot, but could gib them on headshot as well. It’d be the Sparks counter or Kira counter.


(ProfPlump) #8

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;97890”]Well, personally I feel like the MoA should at least deal enough damage to down a Fragger and Thunder, but Splash may disagree.

Regardless, I like the direction they are going if I understand it correctly. At least now it’s possible to gib someone more quickly since explosive damage will bleed into gib health, making Fletcher and Nader more potent.

That said, I feel like the Fe Lix would need a substantial buff still.

I think the sway while moving should be removed entirely, just eradicated, and the Fe Lix should get buffed to deal 90 damage at least. This way no only does it down a light class with a headshot, but could gib them on headshot as well. It’d be the Sparks counter or Kira counter.[/quote]

Well, first off, they aren’t actually planning on nerfing the damage of the MoA - just its insta-gib capability (not to be confused with its insta-kill ability).

Second, Fletcher and Nader really don’t need to be buffed at all as it is and neither does Fragger, so I don’t see why you’re excited to see them becoming more ‘potent’…

And finally removing the scope sway while moving would be a terrible idea - the sniper rifles are already far too good as it is and they don’t need a buff like this. And for the record my suggestions are there to mediate the huge nerf of taking away the insta-gib, which far outweighs their benefits - I am NOT asking to buff the bolt actions in their current state.

And your suggestion to make the FEL-IX deal 90 damage is a little insane in my opinion - that would have to be complimented by a MASSIVE reduction to its rate of fire and magazine capacity (by halving both of them), otherwise it would be absolutely overpowered.


(LifeupOmega) #9

I just wish I could one shot any merc, even if they are revivable after.

That or give Vas an activated ability that allows him to gib a target on a 20-30 seconds cooldown.


(watsyurdeal) #10

[quote=“ProfPlump;98150”]

Well, first off, they aren’t actually planning on nerfing the damage of the MoA - just its insta-gib capability (not to be confused with its insta-kill ability).[/quote]

True, but you can not argue that it lessens Vasilli’s potency as a whole. He’ll be picked less often because he’s simply just not THAT good, people joke about Sparks being picked over him but let’s be realistic here. Have a Sniper? Or a somewhat Sniper who can also revive and heal? The choice is obvious.

[quote=“ProfPlump;98150”]
Second, Fletcher and Nader really don’t need to be buffed at all as it is and neither does Fragger, so I don’t see why you’re excited to see them becoming more ‘potent’…[/quote]

Because when I play Nader I go for directs, I don’t bother with splash damage unless I’m doing an area denial or bombing strat. 90 damage on direct, this means that if the first nade doesn’t kill you, the second one will, AND the leftover damage will bleed into gib health, making her more potent at finishing people off. Fletcher will be the same, traps will be a hell of a lot stronger, it’ll actually be possible to kill someone with 3 well placed stickies when the come around the corner. And Fragger well, it depends on what they do, they may just buff the damage of the nade and reduce the radius, or the opposite.

[quote=“ProfPlump;98150”]
And finally removing the scope sway while moving would be a terrible idea - the sniper rifles are already far too good as it is and they don’t need a buff like this. And for the record my suggestions are there to mediate the huge nerf of taking away the insta-gib, which far outweighs their benefits - I am NOT asking to buff the bolt actions in their current state.[/quote]

If they do not gib on headshot then why the hell not? As that is the only decent reason to have it, otherwise it is a stupid counter measure that doesn’t belong in a fact paced game like this. I feel the same way about things like aim punch, completely random recoil patterns, and honestly, not a fan of jump scoping either.

[quote=“ProfPlump;98150”]
And your suggestion to make the FEL-IX deal 90 damage is a little insane in my opinion - that would have to be complimented by a MASSIVE reduction to its rate of fire and magazine capacity (by halving both of them), otherwise it would be absolutely overpowered.[/quote]

It already fires slower and has a slower reload, and it could easily be changed to make you move slower while scoped, have a slower aim time, all sorts of things to make the weapon more cumbersome and harder to use for a faster style of play.


(blisteringOwlNest) #11

I don’t play snipers, but I do think stopping insta gibs will make pubs more likely to help the group, as they’ll rely on the front lines to finish off downed enemies. Hopefully.


(ProfPlump) #12

[quote=“ProfPlump;98150”][quote=“Watsyurdeal;97890”]Well, personally I feel like the MoA should at least deal enough damage to down a Fragger and Thunder, but Splash may disagree.

Regardless, I like the direction they are going if I understand it correctly. At least now it’s possible to gib someone more quickly since explosive damage will bleed into gib health, making Fletcher and Nader more potent.

That said, I feel like the Fe Lix would need a substantial buff still.

I think the sway while moving should be removed entirely, just eradicated, and the Fe Lix should get buffed to deal 90 damage at least. This way no only does it down a light class with a headshot, but could gib them on headshot as well. It’d be the Sparks counter or Kira counter.[/quote]

Well, first off, they aren’t actually planning on nerfing the damage of the MoA - just its insta-gib capability (not to be confused with its insta-kill ability).

Second, Fletcher and Nader really don’t need to be buffed at all as it is and neither does Fragger, so I don’t see why you’re excited to see them becoming more ‘potent’…

And finally removing the scope sway while moving would be a terrible idea - the sniper rifles are already far too good as it is and they don’t need a buff like this. And for the record my suggestions are there to mediate the huge nerf of taking away the insta-gib, which far outweighs their benefits - I am NOT asking to buff the bolt actions in their current state.[/quote]

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;98455”][quote=“ProfPlump;98150”]

Well, first off, they aren’t actually planning on nerfing the damage of the MoA - just its insta-gib capability (not to be confused with its insta-kill ability).[/quote]

True, but you can not argue that it lessens Vasilli’s potency as a whole. He’ll be picked less often because he’s simply just not THAT good, people joke about Sparks being picked over him but let’s be realistic here. Have a Sniper? Or a somewhat Sniper who can also revive and heal? The choice is obvious.

[quote=“ProfPlump;98150”]
Second, Fletcher and Nader really don’t need to be buffed at all as it is and neither does Fragger, so I don’t see why you’re excited to see them becoming more ‘potent’…[/quote]

Because when I play Nader I go for directs, I don’t bother with splash damage unless I’m doing an area denial or bombing strat. 90 damage on direct, this means that if the first nade doesn’t kill you, the second one will, AND the leftover damage will bleed into gib health, making her more potent at finishing people off. Fletcher will be the same, traps will be a hell of a lot stronger, it’ll actually be possible to kill someone with 3 well placed stickies when the come around the corner. And Fragger well, it depends on what they do, they may just buff the damage of the nade and reduce the radius, or the opposite.

[quote=“ProfPlump;98150”]
And finally removing the scope sway while moving would be a terrible idea - the sniper rifles are already far too good as it is and they don’t need a buff like this. And for the record my suggestions are there to mediate the huge nerf of taking away the insta-gib, which far outweighs their benefits - I am NOT asking to buff the bolt actions in their current state.[/quote]

If they do not gib on headshot then why the hell not? As that is the only decent reason to have it, otherwise it is a stupid counter measure that doesn’t belong in a fact paced game like this. I feel the same way about things like aim punch, completely random recoil patterns, and honestly, not a fan of jump scoping either.

[quote=“ProfPlump;98150”]
And your suggestion to make the FEL-IX deal 90 damage is a little insane in my opinion - that would have to be complimented by a MASSIVE reduction to its rate of fire and magazine capacity (by halving both of them), otherwise it would be absolutely overpowered.[/quote]

It already fires slower and has a slower reload, and it could easily be changed to make you move slower while scoped, have a slower aim time, all sorts of things to make the weapon more cumbersome and harder to use for a faster style of play. [/quote]

The issue is that if you remove the ability to insta-gib without putting in some way for the bolt action to in some way prevent their targets from being revived (like the 2nd solution I suggested where they become unreviveable but finishable for 3 seconds, after which they become reviveable again) then the bolt action rifles will just be useless.

Giving the bolt actions zero scope sway will not make them viable, as all their targets will just pop back up again before they can be gibbed with a secondary shot (unless there is no medic on the team).

The fact is that if insta-gib is completely removed and snipers have to fire a second shot into their downed opponents each time, giving enemy medics a massive window to revive their teammate completely, then the MOA and the FEL-IX will not even be used any more. I’ve been practicing with the PDP-70 and I can see that due to its high firerate you can kill an opponent and then fire another bullet into their downed body to gib them BEFORE THEY’VE EVEN HIT THE GROUND. Considering that this effectively allows the PDP-70 to insta-gib if the shooter is skilled enough, I definitely see it becoming more popular for competitive players and a consequent phasing out of the MOA and FEL-IX (unless the insta-gib remains in some way - we’ll have to wait and see for the exact changes).

And for the record when you suggested that the FEL-IX be given 90 damage per shot, the only reason I objected was because you didn’t say that it should be given any nerfs to counteract such a massive buff. In your reply you did say that you would reduce firerate, strafing speed etc, but you didn’t in the original comment - that’s why I objected to it.


(ProfPlump) #13

Not trying to condescend here - but the only reason that bolt action snipers are viable is because of their insta-gib ability. If the insta-gib is removed entirely we won’t see any more MOAs or FEL-IXs in pubs, let alone competitive games.


(Szakalot) #14

sorry but I stopped reading after ‘takes 1.5-2seconds to fire another shot’


(ProfPlump) #15

What? Why? 1.5-2 seconds is fairly mathematically accurate.

The MOA fires at 44 RPM, and the FEL-IX at 38 RPM.

So the MOA’s absolute minimum time between shots is exactly 1.364 seconds and the FEL-IX’s absolute minimum time between shots is exactly 1.579 seconds.

And that’s not even counting the imperfection of human control - it’s very difficult to click at the exact perfect intervals, so it usually takes a little bit longer to fire 2 shots.

Seems like you have no actual understanding of how this game, or mathematics in general, actually work.


(Szakalot) #16

What? Why? 1.5-2 seconds is fairly mathematically accurate.

The MOA fires at 44 RPM, and the FEL-IX at 38 RPM.

So the MOA’s absolute minimum time between shots is exactly 1.364 seconds and the FEL-IX’s absolute minimum time between shots is exactly 1.579 seconds.

And that’s not even counting the imperfection of human control - it’s very difficult to click at the exact perfect intervals, so it usually takes a little bit longer to fire 2 shots.

Seems like you have no actual understanding of how this game, or mathematics in general, actually work.[/quote]

alright, I saw ‘2sec’ and alarm bells starting ringing cause I was sure its not 2.


(ProfPlump) #17

What? Why? 1.5-2 seconds is fairly mathematically accurate.

The MOA fires at 44 RPM, and the FEL-IX at 38 RPM.

So the MOA’s absolute minimum time between shots is exactly 1.364 seconds and the FEL-IX’s absolute minimum time between shots is exactly 1.579 seconds.

And that’s not even counting the imperfection of human control - it’s very difficult to click at the exact perfect intervals, so it usually takes a little bit longer to fire 2 shots.

Seems like you have no actual understanding of how this game, or mathematics in general, actually work.[/quote]

alright, I saw ‘2sec’ and alarm bells starting ringing cause I was sure its not 2.[/quote]

Well considering that there’s still that bug which makes downed players suddenly twirl around on the floor, it’s quite likely that the Vassili misses the gib on the downed enemy the first time (at least missing the headshot - some mercs require 4 total body shots from a MOA to be gibbed - two to down them, two to gib). So 2 seconds isn’t that far off at all, since Vassili players may choose to wait until that body-twirling bug occurs BEFORE they shoot the gibbing shot.