I love the new quickjoin


(bgyoshi) #21

@imLegal

Something tells me you’ve deluded yourself into thinking I’m against CMM in some capacity. Don’t confuse CMM with Matchmaking, they aren’t the same. When I say matchmaking, I mean the back-end processes that determine what players are paired together to play a game. I don’t mean the actual CMM feature.

I would’ve rather they actually improved CMM itself and added more functionality and gameplay updates to it, instead of what players complained at them to do. Which was fuck with the algorithm and the actual matching process. That was a pointless waste of time that would’ve been better spent improving CMM itself.

It’s like your arguing my point for me but somehow under the impression that we’re going on about opposite things lol


(imLegal) #22

@teflonlove said:
But now, with only a few hundred players on average left there is nothing that can be done anymore than just lump a bunch of people together and hope they try to balance it out themselves by switching teams.

@bgyoshi said:
@imLegal

Don’t confuse Casual Matchmaking with Matchmaking, they aren’t the same.

Don’t confuse CMM with Matchbalancing* is what you meant, there’s a difference. Casual Matchmaking is still Matchmaking lmfao.

Let’s get this straight: the implementation of the functional feature CMM offered included match balancing. Matchmaking wasn’t a stand alone feature which is why people were just as critical to match balancing as they were to CMM. Once again, we can argue the pros and cons of match balancing and both of us would have valid statements because let’s face it people had both good and bad experiences. You however simplified people’s legitimate concerns about match balancing as “whining” and “pointless” and called it a distraction from focusing on improving game features when in fact that’s what they were doing to begin with - and if they failed to do so it’s not because it’s the player’s fault for wanting to play desirable matches, it’s the devs fault. Yes, a lot of time was invested into match balancing and yes you can argue that now that they’ve scrapped it completely it was a waste of time in which you would be right (we both agree on this) but to pin it on player accountability when at the end of the day it’s SD’s fault is ridiculous.

The idea that you also want to hold players accountable for better matches is ludicrously stupid when:

  1. You specifically mention players NEED to suggest ways to make the game better and improve player retainage while simultaneously simplifying valid concerns, feedback, and suggestions as pointless whining to distract the devs from improving the game and once again not to mention

  2. there’s already been countless suggestions proposed. Some of which were implemented along with CMM (match balancing included). You made the assertion that if players want better matches they need to suggest ways to make the game better and improve player retainage and yet so far despite doing already that the game isn’t getting better and the playerbase keeps declining.

TL;DR for the critical thinkers: Holding accountability for SD’s failures onto players for wanting match balance (whether they’re pragmatic about it or not) and asserting the quality of their matches boils down to their suggestions is illogical.


(bgyoshi) #23

@imLegal said:

Let’s get this straight: the implementation of the functional feature CMM offered included match balancing. Matchmaking wasn’t a stand alone blah blah blah blah blah banter about justifications and nitpickiness about definitions blah blah blah blah

Yes people were complaining about the match balancing (ooooo your terms!) algorithm. For the duration of my speaking I will refer to the long phrase MATCHMAKING MATCH BALANCING PAIRING ALGORITHM with the simple phrase matchmaking. I will also refer to the game feature known as Casual Matchmaking as CMM and specifically inform you that CMM is a game feature that needed improvement and matchmaking is a back-end process that put players queuing in CMM into games.

I’ll further clarify that we are both lamenting our disappointment in SD’s lack of improving THE GAME FEATURE CMM and I am specifically calling out their constant attention on THE BACK-END PROCESS MATCHMAKING as being the reason why they did not improve THE GAME FEATURE, and that it was because THE PLAYERS were constantly GRIPING ABOUT THE BACK-END PROCESS MATCHMAKING

Are we on the same page yet?

The idea that you also want to hold players accountable for better matches is ludicrously stupid when:

  1. You specifically mention players NEED to suggest ways to make the game better and improve player retainage while

Full stop. I never said players NEED to do anything but that. You have implied the rest through your own flawed thought processes. But I will indeed add that

simplifying valid concerns, feedback, and suggestions

…is a skill that most people don’t have but need so that the devs can

[improve] the game

And not focus on back-end processes that are best left to solve when the game features are in a better state.

  1. there’s already been countless suggestions proposed. Some of which were implemented along with CMM (match balancing included). You made the assertion that if players want better matches they need to suggest ways to make the game better and improve player retainage and yet so far despite doing already that the game isn’t getting better and the playerbase keeps declining.

Fine I’ll further clarify that these suggestions should make up the largest portion of the players’ feedback and concerns and not the dubbed “pointless whining” that is, in fact, the largest feedback.

TL;DR for the critical thinkers: Holding accountability for SD’s failures onto players for wanting match balance (whether they’re pragmatic about it or not) and asserting the quality of their matches boils down to their suggestions is illogical.

Not really, but okay. Players and devs are both responsible for the quality of the game. If devs are making changes based on community feedback and community feedback is mostly “games are imbalanced i hate u” then the community is equally as responsible for the lack of features as the devs are for listening to the community whining.


(imLegal) #24

Perhaps the problem isn’t me indicating the technicalities but rather you whose clearly ignoring them. You’re the one who brought up the issue of critical thinking and people not diving with deeper thoughts into things and then getting mad when I am. Lmfao. Simply refuting my original statement by modifying it with angry spam, false implications, and fallacies doesn’t make my original statement anyless true then it was before besides misrepresenting what I said. If you misrepresent matchbalancing with matchmaking, that’s an error on your part. Once again: Matchbalancing and matchmaking are not completely synonymous to each other. That’s a fact, you can choose to delude yourself from reality and disagree. That’s fine, it still doesn’t invalidate what I originally stated.

You’re not clarifying anything by selectively decompiling matchmaking (CMM.) with matchbalancing when it’s already been established that they’ve been part of the same functional feature this whole time. Since the beginning there were improvements made to the algorithm which in itself were improvements for CMM in general. There were improvements made for CMM aswell that weren’t direct improvements to the team balancing algorithm aswell like improving the system’s UI. There were criticism and praise for CMM’s matchbalancing algorithms just as there were criticisms and praise unrelated to matchbalancing. Maybe not to the same degree but nonetheless still there. Yes, we’ve already established SD has invested a lot of time into the team balancing algorithm. Nobody is denying that. The problem is accountability: you keep pinning the idea that it’s ultimately the players fault when it simply isn’t. SD ultimately CHOSE to go through and invest a large amount of time into match balancing algorithms, even prior to CMM’s release and their private testing phases which is why in that period of time we saw barely any development. Players AKA possible customers pointing out feedback/criticism or spamming hyperbolic nonsense for x reason (in this case match balancing), pragmatically or not, is not the equivalent to devs who have to plan, create, execute, and manage. Nobody is denying the possibility that players had influence into their decisions but the sheer fact that players are playing the game in the first place in itself makes players conditionally influenceable by possibility.

Full stop. I never said players NEED to do anything but that. You have implied the rest

Sorry to be the ice breaker but you did in fact made these implications. Given I wasn’t as vague as you were initially, you still simplified the problem of match balancing concerns as “whining”, “pointless”, and doing nothing but “distract SD from focusing on improving game features” (all quotes by you). The validity of people’s concerns and suggestions is not relative to how you feel about them. Even if you think match balancing, or the concept of, is a waste of time (which you’ve implied it is but you seem confused of your own implications so i’ll let it up to you), it doesn’t inherently make a person’s concern/complaint/feedback/suggestion/or even hyperbolic non-sense hold less validity by default. If you can’t even see through the load of bs you’re typing on your own how do you have such high expectations of others to critically analyze?

I’m not even going to address again the illogical assessment you made of holding player suggestions accountable for the deciding outcome of their match qualities.


(Teflon Love) #25

Do not feed the troll. :trollface:


(kopyright) #26

@teflonlove said:
Do not feed the troll. :trollface:

I am losing track lately.


(Press E) #27

I haven’t clicked on this thread in a while, and I’m kinda glad I hadn’t lol


(bgyoshi) #28

@teflonlove I can’t help it lmao

Apparently critical analysis means “This is how I interpreted what you said and you clearly meant exactly what I interpreted because I’m flawless”

My god I swear I could compare you and this image side by side and think you were staring into a mirror

@imLegal said:
Perhaps the problem isn’t me indicating the technicalities but rather you whose clearly ignoring them.

lmfao

You’re the one who brought up the issue of critical thinking and people not diving with deeper thoughts into things and then getting mad when I am.

lmfao

Lmfao.

Simply refuting my original statement by modifying it with angry spam, false implications, and fallacies doesn’t make my original statement anyless true then it was before besides misrepresenting what I said.

“Simply refuting my misunderstanding of your side by reiterating yourself in simpler words pointing out the things I implied doesn’t make me any less correct!”

If you misrepresent matchbalancing with matchmaking,

I didn’t

Once again: Matchbalancing and matchmaking are not completely synonymous to each other. That’s a fact, you can choose to delude yourself from reality and disagree.

@bgyoshi said:
Don’t confuse CMM with Matchmaking, they aren’t the same.

Such disagreement.

Since the beginning there were improvements made to the algorithm which in itself were improvements for CMM in general.

Yeah I guess painting my car a different color is an improvement to it’s performance in general.

(that’s called a joke, implying that the algorithm is just fluff for the mode and not a key component)

There were improvements made for CMM aswell that weren’t direct improvements to the team balancing algorithm aswell like improving the system’s UI.

Oh right I forgot, a global improvement to everything in DB -is- a direct upgrade to CMM and should be treated as such! Next time I get a house, I’m going to say I upgraded my bed :smiley:

Sorry to be the ice breaker but you did in fact made these implications.

Oh really? I can’t find them… explain

Given I wasn’t as vague as you were initially,

@bgyoshi said:
Please give an example of any 5+player team-based game with solo queuing whose highest complaint is not match balance, as an example of a game that has solved the problem and always gives 100% perfect match pairings no matter what skill level the players are at

That looks pretty direct to me, we’re talking about match balance and pairings, aka matchmaking, the back end process.

you still simplified the problem of match balancing concerns as “whining”, “pointless”, and doing nothing but “distract SD from focusing on improving game features”

And yet apparently it’s all their fault for listening. Wait a minute…

The problem is accountability: you keep pinning the idea that it’s ultimately the players fault when it simply isn’t. SD ultimately CHOSE to go through and invest a large amount of time into match balancing algorithms

Huh I wonder why they would do that

Players AKA possible customers pointing out feedback/criticism

Oh thanks, it’s almost like they want to please their possible customers and make money or something. Ergo there must also be blame on the players for griping about an unsolvable issue, as a company, wanting to please it’s customers, will work on the problems most-griped about. Stunning.

Even if you think match balancing, or the concept of, is a waste of time (which you’ve implied it is but you seem confused of your own implications so i’ll let it up to you),

@bgyoshi said:
It’s almost like whining about match balance is pointless and doesn’t do anything but distract SD from focusing on improving the game features and instead makes them focus on completing the impossible task of perfectly balancing 1,000 players from a huge range of skill levels across the entire world or something

I’m not quite sure you understand what “implied” means. I directly said it first post

it doesn’t inherently make a person’s concern/complaint/feedback/suggestion/or even hyperbolic non-sense hold less validity by default.

No it doesn’t. What makes it hold less validity by default the impossibility of completing the task. For example, “I hate this game because I can’t fly into the sun and live to talk about it.” would not be an inherently invalid concern just because I don’t think it’s useful feedback. What makes it inherently invalid is that it’s impossible to do.

I’m not even going to address again the illogical assessment you made of holding player suggestions accountable for the deciding outcome of their match qualities.

Minus this entire post, right?

Okay I’m done

Say whatever shill you want you’re not here to discuss anything you’re just trying to backpedal, avoid the point, nitpick about definitions, justify your misunderstandings, claim that you know what I mean to say more than I do, and somehow convince me that you’ve had it right all along.

It’s easier to just say “Oh sorry, I was confused. You’re right, we are talking about the same thing.” and move on.

The point stands: Match balancing is pointless to try and perfect

They should’ve ignored the cries to keep fixing it and instead focused on fixing the larger problem; people aren’t playing the game.

Literally anything else you’re bringing up is not part of my original post and just shit you collected by rolling everything down hill and plucked from the pile, pretending it was the intent all along

Rofl

inb4threadclosed


(imLegal) #29

You’ve been exposed @bgyoshi:


(Oxayotl) #30

So do we all agree that removing CMM was a bad thing when it meant no more party system?
I think we all agree.


(Teflon Love) #31

@imLegal said:
You’ve been exposed @bgyoshi:

I mostly meant that @bgyoshi should stop feeding the trolling @imLegal but it seems that I also have struck a nerve with him. Which probably now makes me a troll too. /epic_fail.


(bgyoshi) #32

@teflonlove said:
Which probably now makes me a troll too. /epic_fail.

Or is it epic win? Hmmm…


(kopyright) #33

@Oxayotl said:
So do we all agree that removing CMM was a bad thing when it meant no more party system?
I think we all agree.

tbh I thought it would be worse. Most servers seem to be alright, and Discord + server browser just feels like the old days.


(HadronZodiac) #34

Yeah because unbalanced matches

Joining games with little people

Enjoying a game till 92 random people join and ruin the fun

Is something to celebrate


(kopyright) #35

@HadronZodiac said:
Yeah because unbalanced matches

It’s not like CMM was the Holy Grail of match balance.

@HadronZodiac said:
Joining games with little people

That’s why you should use the server browser.


(Oxayotl) #36

@kopyright said:
tbh I thought it would be worse. Most servers seem to be alright, and Discord + server browser just feels like the old days.

But if I want to introduce new players and play with them, I expect it to be hell on earth, with full servers, servers that they can join but I can’t, server that I can join but they can’t, etc…