I just need to share this...

PixelTwitch · 2014-05-01 17:09:10 UTC

lol I actually almost wet myself a little bit then…

Glottis-3D · 2014-05-01 17:58:53 UTC

lol @ defuse in standup position and not even spaming crouch.

a huge mistake.

that doesnt take away a great shot!

INF3RN0 · 2014-05-01 19:34:05 UTC

Bring that high skill muscle to weekend gathers boys! *skirt blows in the wind

DJswirlyAlien · 2014-05-01 20:11:51 UTC

Not me, I’ll be the one getting shot in the face defusing again.

spookify · 2014-05-01 20:55:55 UTC

Who plays computer games on the weekend! Especially with summer here! Or trying to get here.

INF3RN0 · 2014-05-02 00:56:13 UTC

It’s in the afternoon…

Ashog · 2014-05-04 07:44:55 UTC

Ha! I saw the original poster’s frag first hand - was lying dead near the defusing trio I wonder what were they doing there, so lined up, especially since defusing doesn’t stack nowadays.

Was an amazing shot indeed. If the game had proper dying sounds/screams, it would have sounded awesome (I can just imagine how awesome this frag would sound in ETQW).

Interestingly, it seems that most voicechats can be heard only by a person who says them, rather than whole server. For example in the vid, I voicechatted Great Shot! but only a text message appeared, no sound could be heard on Pixel’s client.

Hope those sound problems get sorted out some day.

onYn · 2014-05-05 01:02:59 UTC

Whats the problem with aiming accurate while jumping? Please explain. But in a way and “oldschool” et:qw guy can understand, if something like that even exists. It may happen to hit a headshot while jumping and even if it happens it´s on targets that don´t move or fire back at you. I don´t see this to be an efficient way to sniper, besides melee sniper <3 where you just to try hit anything, what after all isn´t a good way to play the game if you want to win, but a lot of fun But maybe you guys just are so much better at aiming, that you hit everything while jumping arround with the sniper and no one can even touch you. But yeah, lets keep comparing a game where you need 3 or more headshots to kill someone (what is the case in every game these days) with other games. I amure that works out.
Dont get me wrong I would like this game to become interesting, and somehow hard to master. That should happen by making maps that can be played in many different ways and positions, movement that needs to be mastered and little tricks you can do here and there (like specific jumps). For sure not by making shooting while jumping inaccurate.

This discussion about this game being or becoming too hard/complicated, and pointing out LoL as an good example of an “easy” game is pretty good too. Me and my friends have played about 2k games, with 35 mins of average time and are still far away from really knowing everything that there is to know in this game, understanding every mechanic, matchup and stuff. Even basic mechanics like kiting, still is hard to do for some of them. I dont see an FPS ever becoming harder to learn/understand then LoL. It´s all about having enough people playing it (what I hope is SD´s goal with Xt) and a proper matchmaking.
And CS being played and dominated by oldschool players? I never really played CS, I don´t know how to use or throw nades properly, nor have an idea of general positioning or how to play each map properly, and still have about the same rank as I have in LoL (where I have more then 1000 hours of experience, and most people I play against even more). Just by doing pewpew. Great example.

I´d be glad if this turns out to be a FPS in the end, and not an ability chain and nade spam overload. However I am looking forward to more open Maps with more tactical and positional options. Also still waiting for the TTK to get a little bit higher :D(even tho I know this will never happen ^^). I know that´s probably “slightly” offtopic but meh, I just lost too many games in LoL and now I am mad :). In case I understood something in the wrong way, and anyone feels insulted by me, I am sorry.

EDIT: Yeah, dunno what I was thinking, it really is hardcore offtopic, soz^^

Rex · 2014-05-13 01:01:29 UTC

Why? Any reasons?

[QUOTE=Tast1c;496464]to be fair what you refer to skill ceiling (whatever this is for you), extraction is slightly more difficult to play than a BF or CoD, where even a beginner can be on par with ppl who spent hours on it. In Extraction this is not that much a problem.

Actually the skill ceiling doesnt matter, as long you have a variety of mercs, weapons, strategies to choose from. When this is zero, then the last thing you look for is skill ceiling. Dont get me wrong, but I dont think Extraction should be too hard to play. If you have a top fps game where only hardcore fps players can have some fun and casual players move on to the next game. I think thats one of the reasons why counterstrike shrinked so much over the years. tbh in the scene there are all more or less full blood cs players only. Im sure it is a lot more enjoyable to play to the top in LoL than in CS.[/QUOTE]

The point isn’t that it should be too hard to play neither only being fun for ‘hardcore fps players’, but that it should have enough room for players to enhance their skills.
Skill ceiling does matter a lot, otherwise competition would have absolutely no sense at all.
Also for those players who always strive to improve theirselves, like myself. And obviously keeps the game fun and exciting for a long period of time.

If you like it or not, they will come. But don’t worry they will be far away from pub servers.

Absolutely!

[HR][/HR]

[QUOTE=PixelTwitch;496465]Tbh…

I feel there is a decent skill ceiling regardless of what I have seen said around these forums…
It think only one you have a decent stable framerate, good mouse movement and overall “polish” will it show though.

I think the game is great and if you guys keep doing what you are doing (all be it a little faster as I want it NOW!) you could be on to a winner.

Now I know that its a risky thing to say on these forums…
But there is such thing as taking to much advice of the old school guys that pretty much just want the same thing as years ago…
[/QUOTE]

Making a vague statement without much background knowledge is risky indeed.
If I wanted to put one player group off, I could easily say the same thing about the majority of the new players (you’re an exception here), but in my case I would be mostly right looking at the Nexon forum.
What you probably don’t know is that those ‘old school guys’ gave their best to save this game, with a lot of effort involved. Sadly some already left. Yes, there are players here who just want exactly the same. But on the other hand there are also some who try to shape Extraction based on essential features what made past SD games a success.
Even if you won’t agree, the majority of the community supported the ideas of the ‘old school guys’.

[HR][/HR]

[QUOTE=spookify;496467]First off you do see this every match… Maybe not 3 lined up like that but 2 for sure. I have gotten 2 - 3’s and a hand full of 2’s…

Second that shoot shouldn’t have happened… Find me a game (I’m sure you can) where you can sniper, scope jump with that accuracy. Most games if you move or jump you un-scope or the spread is crazy. I love sniper is unbelievably easy and crazy easy to get head-shots. HS = insta gib so pretty much op. Just saying something should be done to increase the skill ceiling a little.[/QUOTE]

ETQW would be the game.

[HR][/HR]

[QUOTE=spookify;496470]All my comments were to actually bring this game into the new age rather then the old school arcade style like it is with a jump sniper…

I see this game right now turning into a spam fest. Mines, turrets and arty’s.[/QUOTE]

From which game where you from that you don’t like the arcade style and spam (there isn’t really spam since the nades are gone…) ?

[HR][/HR]

[QUOTE=PixelTwitch;496474]I also do worry about certain aspects of the game (not the jump sniping) but just the overall skill ceiling as it currently is…

I know you have this big thing about the skill ceiling being “to low” however my fear is the learning curve is to high.[/QUOTE]

The learning curve is too high? I would say it really depends on the game you were coming from. If you come from CoD I can imagine the learning curve being too high, but if you come from games like ET it’s rather underwhelming in terms of a learning curve.

If you were putting the top of the players versus the low and middle in past games, it was no different.

[QUOTE=PixelTwitch;496474]I also totally understand the feeling of wanting what we want… You know what I mean… That “perfect” game…

What I see SD has here is possibly the very best base/core for a free to play game currently in development.
Though what I do I already have access to many FPS games currently in development including a couple of F2P games still in the alpha stages.

This has so much more potential then any “in development” I have currently got my hands on…[/QUOTE]

That’s because not a random developer is behind project, but SD.

[QUOTE=PixelTwitch;496474]I think the one thing that you, myself and most people on this forum need to do… is… well…
open our minds and give feedback based on what we have been given and not what we “want” [/QUOTE]

Open our minds. Agreed. Turn off our brain and accept everything which got thrown at us. NOT!
If we haven’t been giving feedback on what we want, you would have never seen the maps as they are today.

[HR][/HR]

[QUOTE=spookify;496478]
Example and I with I had video of me getting owned but 2 cc guys (One Shot Gun with Mines) and the second and Engy with turret held me 2 v 1 almost the entire first stage of the train one in the little house. I should kill them both no problem but either get hit by a mine or turret or try to take out either one of the 2 and get killed my the player. They couldnt shoot for crap but held down that area for 10 minutes… I was pissed hahaha! And stubborn so I kept pushing it hoping to beat them but their spawn times were to fast…[/QUOTE]

Glad you brought this example up here. You know what’s the problem here? Simply the missing nades. With nades you can enforce a retreat on defending/camping players and take out enemy structures before they become a serious threat. Without nades you had to fight basically against four ‘players’ in your example, which is very hard.

[HR][/HR]

lol…

Glottis-3D · 2014-05-13 08:41:26 UTC

yet another good post from Rex.

+1 for nades!!! (for a half of mercs at least.)

PixelTwitch · 2014-05-13 09:24:50 UTC

Making a vague statement without much background knowledge is risky indeed.
If I wanted to put one player group off, I could easily say the same thing about the majority of the new players (you’re an exception here), but in my case I would be mostly right looking at the Nexon forum.
What you probably don’t know is that those ‘old school guys’ gave their best to save this game, with a lot of effort involved. Sadly some already left. Yes, there are players here who just want exactly the same. But on the other hand there are also some who try to shape Extraction based on essential features what made past SD games a success.
Even if you won’t agree, the majority of the community supported the ideas of the ‘old school guys’.

I understand what you are saying here… However my concern is actually wider spread than simply ‘old school guys.’
The issue that I see (as a kinda outsider) is that the demographic of people given access at the start was far too narrow. When one ‘camp’ is so large its inevitable that other ‘camps’ slowly merge into it. So even though the Majority of the community does not just mean the old school guys… Due to the time they have spent in the game they have started to merge and lines have started to blur… To the point in fact, that I doubt I could distinguish some of the random people that got access to the people that have come over from the hardcore ET and ETQW scene. This mixed with the fact that the number of random everyday players that get access is so small, means that the community as a whole is always going to be pulling in the same direction. Now I do understand that at this quite late point in development the chunk of core design has been done and there is really no going back from here…

The game that I see now is great in many respects… FOR ME…
However, as someone that has been in backstage of eSports for a long time now (spent a lot of time in Team Dignitas) I have witnessed time and time again great ideas collapse right at the final hurdle! Shootmania being one of the most recent examples of a game that is pulled too hard in one direction because of community feedback… Honestly… I have multiple motives for wanting different things from Extraction. I want people to view content I create on the game when the NDA lifts, I want to be able to try and cast the game when it launches and I want to enjoy playing it. Right now I can see the gameplay is almost there… sure it needs a good layer of polish and some tweaks. Not to mention a boatload of new features that I assume are on there way. However, I still have major concerns about everything else around the game… Things that WILL effect the life span and overall popularity and these are things that the ‘old school guys.’ really need to compromise on.

Both the ‘old school guys’ and Splash Damage have done and are still doing a great job… However, I would love for some of us random pub scrubs to get in on the action… I mean, after all… They are likely to end up being a good 95-99% of the playerbase (with a bit of luck).

The truth is many of the changes that I think are essential and valuable are very small and would hardly have any impact on the game at all from the perspective of the long term players but it would make a hell of a difference to people just wanting a bit of fun playing and hoping to watch some games.

(Great post by the way)

Mustang · 2014-05-13 11:10:15 UTC

I hope everyone wants this and agrees it’s a good thing, a large playerbase keeps the game alive, in all respects.

I’m not asking for a definitive list, but do you have some examples of the sorts of things you mean.

PixelTwitch · 2014-05-13 11:59:20 UTC

[QUOTE=Mustang;497402]I hope everyone wants this and agrees it’s a good thing, a large playerbase keeps the game alive, in all respects.

I’m not asking for a definitive list, but do you have some examples of the sorts of things you mean.[/QUOTE]

I am actually working on a video for the forums where I will explain the kinda things I mean. I struggle to read and write so don’t have much confidence in my ability to put stuff down on paper hence why many of my replies come across vague.

Basically the largest bunch of “changes” I would make are actually based around removing frustration, creating “progression/drama” (I will explain in a second) and other minor stuff.

The Progression/Drama stuff I thought was going to be covered till they recently announced they are cutting or at least putting on hold the in round progression. What the game lacks now from a viewer, casual player and losing player point of view is urgency and excitement! This by far is going to be the biggest factor in people leaving the game both in a rage quit a round sense as well as literally get bored and leaving the game.

One thing that almost every single successful (viewership wise and lifespan wise) eSports title has got in common, is “STORY”.
Now I do not mean story as in story telling or lore of characters. I am talking about the story of gameplay and mechanics (sounds so pretentious). The story that is crafted by the people playing the game at that instance in time… This is something you would almost expect an objective based game to have in spades compared to other types of games but Extraction SERIOUSLY lacks in this aspect.

Even Quake in 1vs1 has a story built in each match… sure not as consistantly as a game like LoL, Dota2, Counter Strike or Starcraft… But it is still there.

Extraction finds itself falling into the category of meat grinder all to often and not actually down to the map design for the most part (as much as we all like to complain about map design). The issue with the meat grind is there is no real “story” development for very long periods of time… No heart pounding and ass cletching with excitement. Almost every single (at least 95%) of the kills in the match mean nothing at all.

O wow… I am rambling so much… let me explain in a video I will likely do a much better job…

But the kinda changes just for an example (this is based on what I have played, obviously. Also these are based on “best guess” of the results)
feel free to ask for more details on one or more of the points.

Changes to the respawn timer to both increase value of a kill and help progression of attackers.

Reduce shots to “finish” enemies on the ground. (around 50% with 1 shot HS kill)

Remove revive invulnerability and replace with 75% damage reduction for 1.5 - 3 seconds.

Tweaks to many objectives on many maps.

semi predictable recoil patterns for all weapons. (kinda like counter strike but on a MUCH smaller level… shooting should be EASIER but SKILLBASED)

Limitations to number of Mercs per team in matchmaking.

Additions of more XP sources to better entice objective/team play.

I have an awful lot of things that I want to see hopefully come in the future… Obviously I do not know what they are working on and stuff so I dont want to waste more time then needed making “silly” suggestions.

k0k0nat · 2014-05-13 12:05:29 UTC

[QUOTE=PixelTwitch;497406]

But the kinda changes just for an example (this is based on what I have played, obviously. Also these are based on “best guess” of the results)
feel free to ask for more details on one or more of the points.

Changes to the respawn timer to both increase value of a kill and help progression of attackers.

Reduce shots to “finish” enemies on the ground. (around 50% with 1 shot HS kill)

Remove revive invulnerability and replace with 75% damage reduction for 1.5 - 3 seconds.

Tweaks to many objectives on many maps.

semi predictable recoil patterns for all weapons. (kinda like counter strike but on a MUCH smaller level… shooting should be EASIER but SKILLBASED)

Limitations to number of Mercs per team in matchmaking.

Additions of more XP sources to better entice objective/team play.

I have an awful lot of things that I want to see hopefully come in the future… Obviously I do not know what they are working on and stuff so I dont want to waste more time then needed making “silly” suggestions.[/QUOTE]

This together with the current maps/limited map-pool on the public server is what is frustrating. We had this a bazillion times and every time a “new” tester comes in, he says the same after some hours of playing xT.
Yes, SD made great progress… but… so… slooooowwwww.
When I joined the alpha last year, I expected more than one update every few months…

While I enjoy the weekly drafts a lot, public is just “MEEEEHHH” and I rather play other games. ( The current map-pool really does its best to keep the games boring. )

Erkin31 · 2014-05-13 12:21:28 UTC

I agree with the story argument.

About the others points :

Changes to the respawn timer to both increase value of a kill and help progression of attackers.

Agree with the need, but not with a change of a respawn timer. The change should be on the map and spawns position. It’s better to have a longer distance to travel (player is active), rather than a big respawn timer (player is inactive).

Remove revive invulnerability and replace with 75% damage reduction for 1.5 - 3 seconds.

I don’t know. It’s important to preserve the ability of revive someone during a teamfight.

Tweaks to many objectives on many maps.

Yeah ! Less capture objectives, more interactive objectives, and bomb managed as an object ! (one person throws it, an other person can arm it).

semi predictable recoil patterns for all weapons. (kinda like counter strike but on a MUCH smaller level… shooting should be EASIER but SKILLBASED)

Could be great, more fun and increase the learning curve, but I would prefer a reduction of spread (with some balance on others elements).

Limitations to number of Mercs per team in matchmaking.

Could be difficult in the future. People will buy mercs to play them.
It depends of the number of mercs which will be available at the release of the game.

PixelTwitch · 2014-05-13 12:34:56 UTC

[QUOTE=k0k0nat;497407]This together with the current maps/limited map-pool on the public server is what is frustrating. We had this a bazillion times and every time a “new” tester comes in, he says the same after some hours of playing xT.
Yes, SD made great progress… but… so… slooooowwwww.
When I joined the alpha last year, I expected more than one update every few months…

While I enjoy the weekly drafts a lot, public is just “MEEEEHHH” and I rather play other games. ( The current map-pool really does its best to keep the games boring. )[/QUOTE]

Actually I feel the issue is more deep seeded than simply the limited map pool.

The maps by design and the game design combined just make the game not that fun to play…
Think about other games out there… Call of Duty 4, Counter Strike, TF2, UT, Quake and many many more have a few maps each that a large percentage of the player base would be happy to play none stop. Campgrounds in quake, de_dust2 in CS and Deck16 in UT… Extractions maps while not awful are just not at a level where they can remain enjoyable for long periods of time. Trainyard and Terminal both suffer from the map being too short/small. Underground on the other hand just feels like a pretty bad map purely though design. However I do feel it is still at a point where it could be saved…

I cannot think of a better word so this following statement is going to sound arrogant and aggressive…
I would have thought that common sense would have dictated that each of the maps should have a minimum completion time of 1/2 to 1/3 of the time limit and it should be expected that both teams COMPLETE the map!

There are 2 reasons I feel this should be the case.

1, E-Sports is supposedly a focus… With the rapid growth of E-Sports over the past few years and the fact that more and more large events run to a seclude, having an estimated time for completion of a match is becoming more vital. Also having to give a best of 3 the potential time slot of 100min (back to back games) but the games could be over in 15min is a major issue. While most E-Sports titles do vary in game time with some games of LoL lasting 1 hour and others others being over in 30min but with an estimated and average time of 35 - 40min. While Starcraft is the most obvious exception to this rule most events in esports can be timed relatively well. Extraction on the other hand… yea…

2, You design great maps that are eating away at our systems performance, look great, play great and can really change the flow of gameplay… So why do we hardly get to see all that hard work? It really does remind me of my days on Left 4 Dead and Left 4 Dead 2 where rage quit was common and score differences could mean it was no longer possible to win so we would never play the later maps and often them later maps where the best bits. Honestly though the bit that frustrates me a little more than it should is performance… Rendering a huge map with lots of detail, lights and effects… taking away my FPS and bumping up my electricity bills and yet never letting me see them! lol

PixelTwitch · 2014-05-13 12:46:57 UTC

Agree with the need, but not with a change of a respawn timer. The change should be on the map and spawns position. It’s better to have a longer distance to travel (player is active), rather than a big respawn timer (player is inactive).

While I understand that you want to be doing something and not waiting… while you are running down a long corridor you are still pretty much inactive…

Also the truth is my changes would actually likely REDUCE the time you are waiting behind a death screen overall. The core concept is simple…

[00:01]All 5 people are alive.
[00:02] 1 Person Dies and will respawn in 30 seconds. (defender)
[00:10] 8 Seconds Pass
[00:10] 2 more people die now with 22 Seconds remaining till respawn
[00:23] 13 Seconds Pass
[00:23] 1 More player dies now with 7 Seconds till respawn
[00:30] 4 dead players respawn
RESPAWN TIMER STOPPED TILL NEXT PLAYER DIES AND WILL RESTART FROM 30SECONDS

The 30 seconds is just an example it could likely be less.
The whole idea would be to keep players not down longer but keep them down together to enable easier pushes as attackers.

I don’t know. It’s important to preserve the ability of revive someone during a teamfight.

Call me new school but reviving though a fight till the enemy run out of ammo and need to reload should not be a valid tactic lol.
You can still revive them… Just not revive them and have them survive a sniper shot to the head or 50 machine gun bullets as they run across the battlefield to cover.

Could be difficult in the future. People will buy mercs to play them.
It depends of the number of mercs which will be available at the release of the game.

Now I am not one to point and be all like “well he did it so why can’t I?” but it has to be said… LoL and Smite do this exact thing and have done very well because of it… (actually forces people to buy more characters)

Erkin31 · 2014-05-13 12:56:06 UTC

While I understand that you want to be doing something and not waiting… while you are running down a long corridor you are still pretty much inactive…

Not when you have an advanced movement system.
When you respawn in ET/ETQW and straf jump with knife, it’s fun.
When you respawn in Titanfall and use wallrun/double jump/bunny hop, it’s fun.
When you respawn in Tribes and ski, it’s fun.
Of course, If you can only run with a sprint action, it is not fun.

But i’m ok with the wave system, like in ET/EQW.

LoL and Smite do this exact thing and have done very well because of it… (actually forces people to buy more characters)

LoL and smite have a lot of characters.

PixelTwitch · 2014-05-13 13:04:16 UTC

[QUOTE=Erkin31;497417]Not when you have an advanced movement system.
When you respawn in ET/ETQW and straf jump with knife, it’s fun.
When you respawn in Titanfall and use wallrun/double jump/bunny hop, it’s fun.
When you respawn in Tribes and ski, it’s fun.
Of course, If you can only run with a sprint action, it is not fun.

But i’m ok with the wave system, like in ET/EQW.

LoL and smite have a lot of characters.[/QUOTE]

Actually LoL had 40 exactly at launch but only around 24 at start of open beta.
Smite only had around 20 during most of the alpha and closed beta.

I do want to see a lot more Mercs come into the game but baring in mind that just 12 months ago there was what… like 6 - 7 and we have a few more confirmed already I am confident we should get more…

The wave system is so bad for this game (if the ET/ETQW is the same as this)
because it puts the push down to blind luck… Do they all die and have to wait 20 seconds or do they all die and instantly respawn…
I honestly feel that this is likely the main factor when it comes to the lack of feeling behind kills.

Glottis-3D · 2014-05-13 13:09:39 UTC

[QUOTE=PixelTwitch;497419]The wave system is so bad for this game (if the ET/ETQW is the same as this)
because it puts the push down to blind luck… Do they all die and have to wait 20 seconds or do they all die and instantly respawn…
I honestly feel that this is likely the main factor when it comes to the lack of feeling behind kills.[/QUOTE]
SpawnWave system is great in ET/ETQW.

And no other spawnsystem will work anybetter with bad or broken maps.