"I can't put my finger on it, but something feels missing in this game"


(izraill) #1

“I can’t put my finger on it, but something feels missing in this game”

This is what I said to another player I’d met after we played a series of evenly matched, premade 5v5s in MM. Sure I had fun, but something felt off. After many more hours in DB, I’ve started to realize what it is.

Mercs

First of, let me just say there is very little depth in this game so far. The skill ceiling for an individual player is low(except maybe if you are playing vassili). THAT IS PERFECTLY FINE. Where this game can truly shine is with it’s team play. I say “can” because at the moment there is very little involved. Team play in this game currently begins and ends with the fragger/medic combo. Firefights essentially feel like buildups with no release, a story without a climax. Even when you get a clean wipe on a team, there is a sense of randomness as opposed to good execution. This is mostly due to their being a lack of tactics/strategy available. In this game, you can know exactly where enemies are or what they’re going to do and there still be close to a 50/50 chance of losing the firefight. In most, if not all competitive games I can think of, you are winning that fight a majority of the time.

Winning firefights simply does not feel as rewarding as it should because of the lack of tactics available, mostly due to the lack of mercs. I’m not a fan of MOBAs what so ever, but I can appreciate some of the better aspects of them. In most MOBAs, a single character is not that difficult to pick up and learn, and most of them have very little depth. Where the skill ceiling is really raised is knowledge on the LARGE VARIETY of other characters and how to adjust your play style accordingly when facing them. In addition to that, trying different characters on your own team opens up possibilities to new strategies and play styles. That is where I think the strength of this game lies, in the variety of mercs.

I get why mercs are being released slowly, you want to take your time with each one and see how it effects game balance. This is also a beta. I get it. That being said, this wouldn’t be the first game that was still balancing classes well after launch. I frequently see, “wait until X merc is released to counter that” as a response in class balance discussions(i.e. aura station). Well, if another merc effects balance as such, why are we waiting? As long as nothing is ridiculously OP, class balance shouldn’t even be that high of a priority right now. There are only 4 and a half maps, no MMR, lack of monetization options, no private servers, etc. Class balance should be the least of your worries, especially when most of the mercs were already released and tested prior. You’ll also never achieve perfect class balance, especially when you’re balancing off data from the ridiculously skill gaped, random spamfests that are pubs.

Balance, Matchmaking, and MMR

Skill will always prevail in pubs, and this being a class based shooter, players will be quick to judge a class that is wreaking havoc, regardless of the player controlling them. This is very apparent on the Nexon forums especially, where I think I’ve seen a thread for every single class/weapon being OP. If there is one thing I’ve realized from other betas, it’s that you should take your community’s thoughts on balancing with a grain of salt, at least until high level play is established. For every 1 person that knows what they are talking about their are 5 that are completely misinformed. I like that balancing is done via statistics, but not when that data comes from a ridiculously skewed environment such as pubs.

Creating an MMR and incentivizing MM with faster credit gain/case drops to should be a priority right now.
Not only because it benefits a more competitive community but because you will also get more accurate data from evenly matched teams in a less random environment. You simply can’t balance a game like this around pubs, the skill gap varies too much.

Maps

Asking community for feedback on maps at this point is like asking a blind man to lead you home. No one really knows what they want, things are just “okay” or they aren’t. To have truly great maps, you must release an SDK. The community needs to explore what is possible and ways maps can be opened up to allow for more team play and tactics.

2 heads are better then 1, and a 100 are better then how many map designers SD has. An SDK would benefit the community and the devs, allowing both to bounce ideas off each other. There are aspects of current maps I really like. Maybe I make my own map, an SD map dev or a community map dev sees it, and it sparks an idea for a better map. So on and so forth, and this game will have it’s dust2 a lot faster then it will at it’s current rate.

If you continue to make maps and essentially ask the community if they are “okay”, all you’ll get are “okay” maps. To get great maps, release an SDK.

Splash Damage, you guys seem like good devs with a lot of passion from what I have seen on your stream, but this isn’t a good game yet, it CAN be great. I’m constantly tempted to tell my friends to play this game, but then I hold back. Why? Because I know the second they hit level 7 and realize the only thing to do in this game is pub stomp with the same boring classes that have no depth they will never play again. Even if they will play again when the game has more content, they will be skeptical and close minded. That is how most gamers are.

I’m well aware this is a beta, but betas are also a time you should be building momentum for release. I understand that things like an SDK and MMR take time, but why are mercs that were previously available not playable? Sorry to say, but the lack of variety in mercs turns this game into another generic f2p shooter.


(Hundopercent) #2

You can’t put your finger on it because you would need a finger the size of Africa to cover the amount of problems this game has.


(Glottis-3D) #3

welcome to our club, and have a star! =)


(pHine4s) #4

[QUOTE=izraill;525571]“I can’t put my finger on it, but something feels missing in this game”

This is what I said to another player I’d met after we played a series of evenly matched, premade 5v5s in MM. Sure I had fun, but something felt off. After many more hours in DB, I’ve started to realize what it is.
[/QUOTE]

Whenever i play, all i miss is friendly fire and player collision.
Teamplay and much more important: playing objective would become much more focused.
Many of the brainless "just fire in the crowd, plant mines amidst your own mates, call Airstrikes on your own team to “filter out” enemies wouldnt happen,
the game would become satisfying - put your finger on that.
All other discussions about balance, merc-abilities, maps are of secondary concern and mostly cosmetical.


(Szakalot) #5

[QUOTE=phineasfreak;525708]Whenever i play, all i miss is friendly fire and player collision.
Teamplay and much more important: playing objective would become much more focused.
Many of the brainless "just fire in the crowd, plant mines amidst your own mates, call Airstrikes on your own team to “filter out” enemies wouldnt happen,
the game would become satisfying - put your finger on that.
All other discussions about balance, merc-abilities, maps are of secondary concern and mostly cosmetical.[/QUOTE]

first post and u nailed it


(k0k0nat) #6

[QUOTE=phineasfreak;525708]Whenever i play, all i miss is friendly fire and player collision.
Teamplay and much more important: playing objective would become much more focused.
Many of the brainless "just fire in the crowd, plant mines amidst your own mates, call Airstrikes on your own team to “filter out” enemies wouldnt happen,
the game would become satisfying - put your finger on that.
All other discussions about balance, merc-abilities, maps are of secondary concern and mostly cosmetical.[/QUOTE]

Pah… standing in friendly airstrikes, mines and artillery is part of the tactical depth in this game!


(izraill) #7

I’ve heard from several people that FF does make the game play a lot better. I haven’t tried DB with FF, but it does make sense that it’d help big time. That being said, if the pinnacle of great teamwork in this game is, “Good job guys, no one ate a friendly grenade that time.”, I should consider uninstalling. To say maps are mostly cosmetic though is ridiculous, especially in a game with DBs movement and character abilities. I’m really not even sure how FF and a thing like map design even compare as concerns, especially when FF could be easily implemented.


(Szakalot) #8

friendly fire does more than that: it slows the game down.

Things that contribute to shallow tactical play in game:

  • no friendly fire
    a) no need for crossfires
    b) spam spam spam
  • gibbing too hard
    a) medic trains
    b) constant fight not punishing players for overextending - TDM
  • fast reload on most weapons
    a) people don’t really have to take cover to reload
    b) slower reload means more cool battles of attrition involving secondary weapons and/or ending up in melees, also slayers can fit tank-role more due to high-capacity guns
  • cooldowns on most abilities are very short
    a) no need to make your ability count, just spam away
  • vassilis hearbeat sensor can be perpetually active
  • medics always have medpacks
  • ammo givers always have ammo
  • grenade launcher will spam you constantly
  • there can always be a new mine, turret, hp station around a corner.
    b) powerful abilities that can be used sparingly is the way to go! Darwinian update got the power factor right, but never really toned down on cooldowns making the game incredibly spammy.

If that molotov/airstrike/grenade launcher is used people should cower and hide. But high cooldowns would prevent infinite spamming, allowing counter attacks from the opponent with their abilities.

  • its cool to always be able to use your abilities, but for game to grow strategically those merc choices need to be map changing:
  • Aura’s station could be even buffed, if destroying it would guarantee no station from that aura for ~35-45seconds and not <20 seconds, or a minimum cooldown punishment for a blown station so no new station can be placed (same for bushwhacker). Would make for an interesting cat&mouse where Aura would pick up the station to protect it from AoE: thus grenades, airstrikes, etc. would have a suppression role on the station.
  • Grenade launcher is in a good spot damage wise, and long fuse on bounced nades promotes AoE denial. Nevertheless faster RoF with longer cooldown would make her an opening strategy (quickly spam this area clear, and no nades for some time, rather than a new nade every 4-5 seconds)
  • Airstrike could even be longer, proper carpet bombing with a longer cooldown too
  • medpacks can be used in fight-regen but its a slight boost (25-35 hp?), and no new medpacks for a while, only for non-medics of course : ) Sawbonez can create a small healing bunker with 50-80 hp lying around, but it would cost the team no new medpacks.
    Alternatively all medics could get small cooldown punishment on the medic’s other ability after each revive. (sawbonez reviving loses a bit of healthpacks cooldown, aura loses on her hp-station cooldown). This promotes high-hp slower revives, and punishes revive-spamming people (still can be done but you won’t get everyone back up to 100% hp in 2 seconds)
  • even fragger nades could stay as they are if after throwing the 2 - you know you are safe for considerably longer.

Overall I’d say game could benefit from 20-40% longer cooldowns on many abilities. Or 60-80% longer cooldowns if the abilities get more powerful.


(Kroad) #9

Biggest problem with this game at the moment is that they’re trying to earn money from a beta, game felt a lot more balanced and enjoyable when all the mercs were available - sure, some mercs were useless, but there were still a lot more counters and viable mercs.
I first played this game a year ago and I really don’t see what’s changed, if anything there is a lot less content. The devs are currently not releasing content that they could release simply for monetary reasons and it’s seriously hurting the gameplay, they should really just release all mercs they have and then implement new mercs every x weeks (not necessarily two weeks as it could take them longer to release a new one and that’s fine). They claim to be testing the monetary system now but unless they can produce mercs that fast, they’re going to run out before the game releases, and all the testing will have been for nothing. And if they can produce mercs that fast, then release the current ones and work on new ones - As I said, the gameplay is dull with the current selection.


(onYn) #10

Within all the issues the game has, maps are one of the biggest in my opinion. A lot of tactics and in game variety comes from that single point. EVERYONE on those forums basically agrees on that and also asks for a way for us, the community, to have a way to contribute by developing our own maps. This may be not the ultimate solution itself, but it for sure is a good start. Seeing however, for how long this opportunity is left unused doesn´t make me wonder why almost nothing is improving. They simply don´t want to. End of story…

It almost seems dumb. But maybe it isn´t and I (and everyone else) am just not understanding the overall process of game development by any means… after all we are just mindless testers who seem to have nothing more to do here, then stating there weightless opinions. It doesn´t matter if our opinions are actually reasonable, if we give appropriate feedback with detailed explanations and suggestions. As long as there is one, completely irrational argument against it, it´s over with anything we say. And while I really hope to be wrong here and actually have already found enough ****y games I “endure” playing to not give a damn if one of the most anticipated games in my life is going to be a success or not, I get an idea how the 2 or 3 dominating game developers just eat up the whole industry making the variety of games we can play these days - given the potential - barely over 0.


(prophett) #11

Hopefully steam workshop will save the day :confused:

There is currently only 1 decent map (Chapel), which could be so much better.


(onYn) #12

Well, do you think they intend to make it true? I really wonder… when they intend to let others contribute maps to the game, why don´t they start before the game gets released? I know that SD likes to **** up there games pre launch but still…
Even tho they always needed a modding and helping community to make a game “great” (after launch, with mods, maps etc.) they dont seem to want any help until now, and I am not sure why that should change after launch.