How to make Extraction more appealing

[Protekt1]

Don’t we already have a “pro” player ruining the RU version? lol

[INF3RN0]

Don’t we already have a “pro” player ruining the RU version? lol

But brooo these “pros” know better, duhhhhh… lol. Pro shmoe imo and you bring up the too often overlooked example with the RU version. Everyone has their own idea of what’s best for a game. Alleged pro players are good for pushing a game to its limits, but often tend to suffer from tunnel vision and a false sense of entitlement. Everyone’s an equally capable contributor, and regurgitating our favorite “best game of all time” as often as possible is a primary reason why discussions rarely produce much compromise.

[Protekt1]

The only “pros” that matter are game developers with experience

[shaftz0r]

shootmania brought pros in at every stage of development. that worked out really well for that pile of trash

[Hundopercent]

The casuals are really showering this title with their extensive creativity. Needs more spam and spread though.

You can talk **** on Shootmania, but at least the gunplay, though homogenized, works solid. Their is also a learning curve with the movement system.

[Kinjal]

Don’t we already have a “pro” player ruining the RU version? lol

Destiny will be operating Dirty Bomb in Russia and CIS. They have a proven track-record of operating free-to-play titles in that region, whereas we don’t, and they have a handle on the local needs and wants.

Activity on russian forum (december) - 4 posts. One of them - “Servers not working”, I have no desire to check.

[Humate]

Dont know what sort of pull cooler has in Russia and CIS, perhaps the game benefits having him on board for reasons other than “shaping the game”.

[Glottis-3D]

since when pro gamers are the ones, who make games that are any good?
its not their job(if they even have one, lol).

[N.E.R.D]

I see no pros in Xt. Pro means money. I don’t think anyone is earning money by playing Xt right now If headsets count, then the frenchies are the only pros

[spookify]

Pub Star’s and or ex-pro’s from long dead games…

I even consider BF3 long dead…

[onYn]

Reposting part of my post in the nexon forums here, because there are people who strickly ignore nexon forums I think.

[QUOTE=onYn;8884829]
In my eyes, SD is trying to be artistic, and trying to make “their” game, how they like it, instead of acting rationaly. Using the least amount of money, to get the best outcome. It´s just so much harder and with such high risk of failure, to develop something new, then just take and polish something thats working. And the benefit of a “new” game even probably won´t be much higher. There simply wasn´t something similar to what ET, or ET:QW in the past years, by that it would have the characteristics of a new game too. I am pretty sure, if there would have been somethign similar in the past, these forums would be pretty much empty… However, taking all the working things, from ET and ET:QW, adding new graphics, adjusting it a little to the f2p model, and adding those interesting mercs. It would catch fans from 2 previous, prolly even 3 previous games. That by itself, would be a good number of people allready, by far not all tho. If the game ends up being congruent and long term motivating:

-gameplay fits the maps, and maps fit the gameplay
-objectives keep the motivation on (ok, what´s next? how to aproach? take spawn? rush objective? DUDE SO MANY WAYS IT NEVER GETS BORING)
-the classes allow people to fullfill a specific role in the game, by that make them feel involved if the map is done (ok guy´s I go engineer, I got this! walking up to objective like a boss while veryone is waiting for you…)
-implement interesting and mostly balanced mercs, that doesn´t all have to be considered all valid in comp play, but simply add fun ways to play the game… (TRULLED!^^)

With all these, in addition to all the previous SD players, also many new playes would join the game. Some who never played games for competitive reasons, or never played FPS at all, some who didn´t even know a single sd game, simply all kinds of people.

I seriously hope for SD, that they have done statistic research on that or something. Because otherwise there is no way, somebody would ignore a feedback, that pretty much says what I am saying here and was given for over a year now, and by that simply waste time and money.

Don´t get me wrong, I am not saying THIS GAME has to be exactly like past SD games. But in my eyes SD is unable to create a new competitive FPS. At least not one that´s different from what is on the market out there rigth now, and if they do something similar, they will simply get crashed. I would be completely satisfyed however, if extraction turns out successful, no matter how much different it will be from past SD games. Right now it doesnt feel like this tho, mainly because it neither is a new game, nore it´s something similar to ET/ET:QW. Some aspects are similar, but those just don´t fits in the tiny maps, and every class can do objective, and all those changes, that just doesn´t give a feeling of a well done game, that´s thought through from the first to the last minute of every map. And dont argue here with it´s beta, it´s not finished… I know, that´s why you don´t see me complaining about balance of weapons, mercs or performance issues and other sound or video issues.

So, my final question is: Can someone explain to me, why such a risk is being taken, when a working formula, lies on the desk ready to be picked up… and dont tell me that it´s because Extraction has to hit larger amount of people. Just because it´s more or less simillar it is to past SD games, doesn´t say anything about how succesfull this game can be. And arguing that the ET model is bad, outdated or whatever, is stupid anyways, because there is just no reference or evident proof. Also don´t come with “this game works like it is, stop thinking that it is ET2”. Mythbusters have shown, that sqaure weels can work too, but to do you see someone driving on square weels outside?[/QUOTE]

[acQu]

In my eyes, SD is … trying to make “their” game,

That is what i actually do not think, despite the interviews at PAX (see below).

I seriously hope for SD, that they have done statistic research

And herein lies a big, fat problem (IMO of course). Look at how stuff was done with the russian version. Pretty hardcore consumer-caterin, don’t you think`? As far as i understood all SD comments (think i haven’t even read them all, but i have read some of them) it was made very clear that the game was handed out to Destiny for the purpose of shaping its gamecontent (creative control pretty much handed over). And the tone of this process or the words one could read behind all what SD said officially on that topic, sounded like: “we strongly believe in making a game for the consumer/customer and we think Destiny knows the market and therefore the consumer/customer better than we, so we trust in them to make a game for that consumer”. But this might be completely false interpretation, but that was a tone i got from it: “we create a game for the consumer based on what we think that consumer wants to play”. And this is a BIG FAT PROBLEM if you start to slowly drift into that “developer mode” doing it solely for the money and without heart; on other words: create something YOU YOURSELF likes. I am under the impression that xT is done too much with the head (of course, artistically you can’t say anything, but the actual gamecontent?) and SD does not create anything they would like to play themself. SD crew needs to be more enthusiastic again about the games, it seems all too industrialized and i am also under the impression that the team is too small and that alot of the heads are burned out.

Reposting part of my post in the nexon forums here, because there are people who strickly ignore nexon forums I think.

I had to laugh a bit on that haha. Yeah, i guess one should visit the Nexon forums again from time to time

[BomBaKlaK]

In comparison when I saw the massive players base in some early access games like Rust, DayZ or Another Car Game, I feel like Extraction is going directly in the wall for the moment…

[Rex]

So, my final question is: Can someone explain to me, why such a risk is being taken, when a working formula, lies on the desk ready to be picked up… and dont tell me that it´s because Extraction has to hit larger amount of people. Just because it´s more or less simillar it is to past SD games, doesn´t say anything about how succesfull this game can be. And arguing that the ET model is bad, outdated or whatever, is stupid anyways, because there is just no reference or evident proof. Also don´t come with “this game works like it is, stop thinking that it is ET2”. Mythbusters have shown, that sqaure weels can work too, but to do you see someone driving on square weels outside?

I try to answer now from what I think I know, feel free to correct me though. (not my opinion)

The “old working formula” could be a risk as well, who tells you that this would catch the same amount of people as it did in the past? There is no proof, neither numbers of how many players still have interest in such a game. Yes, Xt should be hitting a larger amount of people, but let’s put it this way: A wider Gamer audience with players from different FPS genres.
There is also no proof of how the “ET model” would work today. I mean how many players would be still interested? That could be a fairly small minority. Wouldn’t it be better to take new players on board as well?
You are coming from a past SD game which was your favourite one and you loved to death, but from a different point of view this game doesn’t need to apply to other people. It could be also a risk to build on only ‘one’ community.

[Anti]

[QUOTE=Rex;486368]I try to answer now from what I think I know, feel free to correct me though. (not my opinion)

The “old working formula” could be a risk as well, who tells you that this would catch the same amount of people as it did in the past? There is no proof, neither numbers of how many players still have interest in such a game. Yes, Xt should be hitting a larger amount of people, but let’s put it this way: A wider Gamer audience with players from different FPS genres.
There is also no proof of how the “ET model” would work today. I mean how many players would be still interested? That could be a fairly small minority. Wouldn’t it be better to take new players on board as well?
You are coming from a past SD game which was your favourite one and you loved to death, but from a different point of view this game doesn’t need to apply to other people. It could be also a risk to build on only ‘one’ community.[/QUOTE]

Pretty much this.

If we take the evidence we have for this type of game then there seems to be an indication of them getting commercially less and less viable over time. Why this is is hard to pin-point, did players get board of them? Were the later games of this style worse than earlier ones? Have players’ tastes changed? Has the audience that loved RTCW and ET simply gotten too old and no longer play games?

We don’t really know, we’re hedging our bets by making an FPS in this style again without knowing the answers to these questions.

Now for many you folks the answer is obvious, clearly a game exactly like ET or RTCW or ETQW or your other favorite game will be an absolute success, because it’d be great! It’d be just what you want! The question is how many other people would want that? That’s something we have to account for.

Then we have to factor in other points. We want to make a Free-to-play FPS, that suits the way we’d like to develop and support a game, but we don’t know what impact that might have in the long run either.

There is also the idea knocking around that a classic ET style game might actually be a very fresh and new thing for players who have never experienced our previous games and only played the likes of CoD and BF, which could make for something hugely popular.

Ultimately we have to take the hard facts we have, the sales data and industry trends, we add that to our beliefs about the game itself, the audience as we see it and what we’d like to make and then we shape the final game around that.

In some cases this means elements that were in ET or RTCW, that we think might not serve us today, are dropped. In other cases it means we bring stuff back from ET or ETQW that we maybe didn’t do in Brink. In others we try to do something totally new.

We have to discover what is and isn’t working as we go, as we add more players and as we continue to build the game, because there certainly isn’t a ‘proven success’ that we can go and copy in today’s market and still have the same results.

[acQu]

Take the core gameplay of ET and expand upon that. The “ET formula” does not mean you have to create a complete clone.

What was so much better in ET? Movement and infights were much more exciting! Objectives and maps were much more exciting. This is the core gameplay one could take from ET, and it is surely better than what is currently now in xT. Also, the many submachine guns are just plain horror in my eyes (also a thing which was so nicely done in ET AKA just a specific amount of weapons but all unique and balanced; this is more catered towards competetive players though, but it still was ok for pub players, as they had other things to explore).

And there we are again at the point where i feel that some people just think that if someone mentions an aspect of a former game, then he must mean one should create a 1:1 clone. The core game is what is meant, and the awesome ideas with the mercs can be built upon that; this is no crime against market data?!

[fragon89]

[QUOTE=Anti;486375]Pretty much this.

If we take the evidence we have for this type of game then there seems to be an indication of them getting commercially less and less viable over time. Why this is is hard to pin-point, did players get board of them? Were the later games of this style worse than earlier ones? Have players’ tastes changed? Has the audience that loved RTCW and ET simply gotten too old and no longer play games?

We don’t really know, we’re hedging our bets by making an FPS in this style again without knowing the answers to these questions.

Now for many you folks the answer is obvious, clearly a game exactly like ET or RTCW or ETQW or your other favorite game will be an absolute success, because it’d be great! It’d be just what you want! The question is how many other people would want that? That’s something we have to account for.

Then we have to factor in other points. We want to make a Free-to-play FPS, that suits the way we’d like to develop and support a game, but we don’t know what impact that might have in the long run either.

There is also the idea knocking around that a classic ET style game might actually be a very fresh and new thing for players who have never experienced our previous games and only played the likes of CoD and BF, which could make for something hugely popular.

Ultimately we have to take the hard facts we have, the sales data and industry trends, we add that to our beliefs about the game itself, the audience as we see it and what we’d like to make and then we shape the final game around that.

In some cases this means elements that were in ET or RTCW, that we think might not serve us today, are dropped. In other cases it means we bring stuff back from ET or ETQW that we maybe didn’t do in Brink. In others we try to do something totally new.

We have to discover what is and isn’t working as we go, as we add more players and as we continue to build the game, because there certainly isn’t a ‘proven success’ that we can go and copy in today’s market and still have the same results.[/QUOTE]
I just to want to make some points and examples.
many companies reached some kind successful formula of game that many ppl like it and they stick to it and it keeps working, like CS, BF even startcraft after 13 years made same game exactly with better graphics and it was huge success.
i don’t know how is your knowledge about COD but cod 1,2 were real huge then cod4 made new gen for the game who also succeeded and since cod4 no other game of COD was good, and look the new COD:GHOSTS died when it came out… cuz they change things all the time.

ET formula was very good, but at the moment XT doesn’t have all ET elements that ppl cry hard about and the game doesn’t attract ppl to stay and play.

Another point, I invited 5 COD players (COD players dying for new comp fps cuz of fail of new cods) and 2 of the never played more than 2 hours, and rest 3 just in clan with me and i believe if i leave the clan they quit this game. so… game doesnt attract other players too…
Its kinda game is stuck in the middle of, not ET and not something good… performance and maps just blows away like 50% of ppl…[if not more]

I hope you take our feedbacks seriously, cuz we dont see it in last patches and save the ship from wrong diraction.

[ailmanki]

[QUOTE=Anti;486375]
We have to discover what is and isn’t working as we go, as we add more players and as we continue to build the game, because there certainly isn’t a ‘proven success’ that we can go and copy in today’s market and still have the same results.[/QUOTE]
Take a moment and read that thingy from Gears of War…
This is what made the most popular maps in ET a success, and every map failing to have that, is not as much of a success.
It is what makes XT’s map linear. In my opinion it has nothing todo with side objectives or whatever else. Its the basic layout, which gives on every replay a different outcome. I don’t really know about QW, yet QW was completely different with its huge open space. And basically having air routes additionally to the ground ones.

[QUOTE=Jonny_Hex;465312]
EDIT: Adding a really good link to an article about GoW 3’s Trenches. Credit to RasteRayzeR for finding that.
http://www.g4tv.com/thefeed/blog/post/725057/the-legacy-of-fail-gears-of-war-3-level-design-with-epics-jim-brown/[/QUOTE]

[onYn]

Okay, that´s exactly the way, I want you, SD, to see this game. I am actually kinda reliefed, that you at least say something like that, even tho it can be just a post to calm down some of us.
I, and many others, still don´t want this to be a 1:1 copy to my favourite game of all time ET:QW, nor ET, I am just looking forward for new, exciting stuff. I really do. However, I apreciate it, that you plan on taking the things you think work best for you, out of ET and ET:QW, that´s really what I was hoping for. There are also some things, that are kinda similar to those games allready.

Still. as far as I apreciate your post, I don´t get it, how difficult it is, to extract the working things from ET and ET:QW, put it into a new envirement (new mercs (I love them :)), and other exciting stuff), and make it just fun? I would like to post here 3 examples, that showcase what I feel is going bad right now.

I am pretty sure, your plan was to make a fast paced game, from the early start, but still the maps you designed are tiny, and without room for that fast gameplay at all.
Objectives, that are no objectives anymore, (in a game that is in the end based on objectives…), because anyone just can do it, and it´s a “push button to win” instead of repairing, hacking, planting or disarming.
Another thing I can think of straight away are hitsounds. They doesn´t help me at all, because the rate of fire is so high, I don´t know if I have hit my enemy 2 or 3 times in the head, what makes it impossible, to judge my current fight, and decide if I have to keep going for the head, or can just finish off with body hits.

They are ordered in a way of how heavy their impact is on the game. So the maps are making it´s pretty hard to enjoy the game itself, the missing objective class and by that even more boring “objectives” make it worse, while the hitsound stuff just is about cosmetics, that still affect the gameplay, at least mine. Still all three points, show a lack of congruent gameplay. It is like giving everyone a weapon to ensure everyone can live in peace. Counterproductive in itself. This can be adressed to many current issues of the game, and by that to the whole process that´s going on here for over a year now. That´s the reason, why I have jumped online 3 or 4 times, and haven´t seen a single populated server. And tell me, how many keys are out there? How many people can play this game for free by now?

I understand, that gamers feedback like mine, doesn´t count much. Most of us just talk about what THEY WANT instead what makes the game really more fun and what not. But there are also many posts, and also threads, that consist entirely of usefull and constructive criticism. And many of them targeted the issues I just posted above, and many others. All those issues, aren´t something I, or other people who try to give constructive feedback, simply don´t like, (I personally would like to see many things I am not even posting here), but they are serious missdesigns. Missdesigns that can´t work out, unless a drastic change happens. For sure not by little map changes, and some rebalancing of the weapons…

[rookie1]

[QUOTE=Anti;486375],If we take the evidence we have for this type of game then there seems to be an indication of them getting commercially less and less viable over time. Why this is is hard to pin-point, did players get board of them? Were the later games of this style worse than earlier ones? Have players’ tastes changed? Has the audience that loved RTCW and ET simply gotten too old and no longer play games?

We don’t really know, we’re hedging our bets by making an FPS in this style again without knowing the answers to these questions…
[/QUOTE]
imo todays games that has something special/original/unique even if they are build on standard FPS base are the one that have/will have chance to be successful
Xt is build on standard bases but is missing the special/original/unique part …for now .
We have to face it there is a huge amount of games today and its will be difficult for most of them except the one that will come with something special .