How could you improve the maps without changing them?

(INF3RN0) #21

The thread title should be changed. The OP doesn’t read very well in the least. If you want to talk about grenades, then name it properly. Completely separate topic.

As for the maps… I blame fundamental map layout being too linear at the core with little separation between viable combat zones. Lack of side objs to distribute players. Lack of forward spawns to allow for dynamic map control. Things would be improved by greater emphasis on spawn waves and map control. More creative skill based travel opportunity. More fast-paced, creative, and just plain new obj types.

How can the current maps be improved without major changes? Well the simple installment of more contestable map-flow side objs, forward spawns, and more stable spawn waves would help most maps tremendously. However, the rest of the stuff I’d like would be more realistic in future maps.

(chump) #22

One way to help the current maps would be to give us back the terrain and paths removed in this patch. The loop on LB and the scaffolding path on waterloo. I don’t see the need of removing this stuff, even if it is less used than in previous patches. The maps need more choice, and less funneling.

(rookie1) #23

[QUOTE=INF3RN0;485906]

…How can the current maps be improved without major changes? Well the simple installment of more contestable map-flow side objs, forward spawns, and more stable spawn waves would help most maps tremendously. However, the rest of the stuff I’d like would be more realistic in future maps.[/QUOTE]
As it is,adding newer forward spawns could be difficult ,map are pretty small for that . mb LB can have one under bridge, waterloo i dont know where its too close to last objective and WC is too close from spawn points of each teams to add a new one …
The maps are too small and linear ,if map was more in circle shape and on vertical that could wider the maps… mb

(prophett) #24

The current maps can be salvaged, they just need to stop trying to do it in baby steps with the least amount of effort possible :confused:

(Raviolay) #25

:rolleyes: The map layout is defined by what a player can do within it… The maps used to be balanced due to every player having a explosive device in there inventory. Now the map layout’s have not changed one iota post or prior to. With any real extent to accommodate removal of grenades, now if you are somehow are deluded to think that having grenades. Does not somehow impact on the layout of a map. Well thats you just not being able to grasp my point analytically, being anti-grenade as you are.

Now please try to say that your are not… there have been plenty of occasions that you have went tit for tat, with Ashog over this rather moot point. On the rather base idea of skill according to the book of Inferno. That when under review boils down to some one beats me with X so Nerf X, Inferno skill matrix must win. Now “How can the current maps be improved without major changes?” Nothing as what you make out to be “without major” is noting is short major, when compared my simple suggestion.

Where as a grenade a class and lower player counts would improve the maps without changing the map layouts at all. Your idea would mean to change the maps, by all means try to spin this as not personal argument against grenades. In fact if the maps as they stand, did not support grenade usage. I would be on the other side of the fence.

In a ideal world the current maps would be scraped in favor of maps that fit the new formula, this however is not going to happen.

(INF3RN0) #26

Okay Raviolay… let’s just add as much explosive spam as is necessary to produce the statistics you want to see. No derp they effect map flow in some manner, but it is a much more simple principle of not needing to rely on spam for momentum and avoiding low skill spam as much as possible all together. High skill weapon play and team work at the forefront please, and maps should simply offer opportunity and reward for it.

(shaftz0r) #27

[QUOTE=INF3RN0;485906]
As for the maps… I blame fundamental map layout being too linear at the core with little separation between viable combat zones. Lack of side objs to distribute players. Lack of forward spawns to allow for dynamic map control. Things would be improved by greater emphasis on spawn waves and map control. More creative skill based travel opportunity. More fast-paced, creative, and just plain new obj types.

How can the current maps be improved without major changes? Well the simple installment of more contestable map-flow side objs, forward spawns, and more stable spawn waves would help most maps tremendously. However, the rest of the stuff I’d like would be more realistic in future maps.[/QUOTE]

All of this. specifically selectable spawns.

i dont really understand why one could convince themselves that a major issue is no nades. i was against removing them at first, but over time ive come to enjoy the lack of spam. if the maps were larger, i would rethink that position, but the only spot on any of the maps that i felt like nades were a requirement, was the hack obj on the balcony on waterloo. with that being gone, i dont see any reason for them to return

(tokamak) #28

The core point is that you can make maps as ‘wide’ as possible as long as both teams have something valuable to lose if they deviate too far from the core routes.

Tweaking nades or respawn times really isn’t going to do anything. TF2 has the same issue and you can spam explosives and nades and whatnot all you want.

What makes SD games different is how modular the battlefields are. Progress is addictive. We’ve known that for a decade.

(montheponies) #29

Sorry to disagree, but modular - in this context - is really another word for linear.

Some of the best maps can be played and won without completing any side objective - Ice, Frostbite, Base, and to some extent/sortof Beach / Radar.

The trick is to make the map interesting by having a variety of ways of completing the primary objective (using meaningful side objectives and capturable spawns) - not just a follow the breadcrumb methodology which leads to the same approach time and again.

(tokamak) #30

I’m not sure how that’s disagreeing but either way you’re absolutely right.

(attack) #31

still the attackers have a much closer spawn to the tank,+ shorter respawn time.
also the defenders have go upside stairs ,which also let it be much easier to def the tank.

maybe if you change the spawn more to the garage like i written in another post.
but this would also hurt the defence in the obj area .

(prophett) #32

Hopefully they’ve been concentrating on drastically improving the current maps, and purposefully holding back Wharf and the other blockouts to RELEASE THEM ALL IN THE NEXT PATCH.

(Glottis-3D) #33

and add ‘vote map’

(tokamak) #34

Mixed feelings about that. On one side it would give SD valuable feedback on which maps are problematic. On the other side, the worst maps are the ones that need to be played the most. On another trimensional side, it’s not just the maps but the entire game that needs to be tested therefore playing on the most functional maps is fine.

(Glottis-3D) #35

it is an option, how that can hurt?
the most important for tests times are like first two weeks. and after that it is just useless waste of time. - remember how 90% times all players quit when that painfull LB started with imba 1st object? this lasted for monthes.

and it is not like when ‘vote map’ is in - no one plays bad maps. they will be played less times. but still they will be played.

(Kendle) #36

Map voting has no place in a game’s testing phase, all the maps need to be tested, and ECHO data collected, regardless of how we feel about them. Add map voting and all you do is reduce the amount of data available to fix the bad ones.

edit: and +1 to what Inferno said above, side objectives, contestable forward spawns etc. that’s what we need more than anything IMO (although +1 for everyone getting at least 1 'nade as well, I miss the little bugger now I don’t have one).

(Glottis-3D) #37

[QUOTE=Kendle;485957]Map voting has no place in a game’s testing phase, all the maps need to be tested, and ECHO data collected, regardless of how we feel about them. Add map voting and all you do is reduce the amount of data available to fix the bad ones.
[/QUOTE]
like speed-running LB and leaving the server gave any usefull data.

(Kendle) #38

It’s not my experience that people leave the server, en-masse, when LB comes on, then return when it switches to the next map. LB currently, albeit reluctantly for some maybe, still gets played, and data collected. Add map voting and ALL you succeed in doing is making it LESS likely bad maps will be improved.

(Glottis-3D) #39

No, i actually can start playing from time to time worse maps, if i am not forced to play them every time in rotation.
As i said, it is an option, which is good. THis cant hurt. and - dont forget it is a vote.

(attack) #40

too LB .what would you think about changing the spawn (yellow),to the blue area and let be the deliver point at the purple.
this would allow the defenders still build up in the room and let be the deliver point close to them.

you have to create some ways for attackers to the deliver point, i painted in some example ways in grey,the defeners.
so the attackers ahev some good ways to attack.+

LBexample.jpg1632×1632 236 KB