"Help up" = "Get fragged again"


(PixelTwitch) #41

Now please do not take this the wrong way…
Making things more “intuitive” does not mean the systems should be void of depth…

I will not sugar coat the fact that reading your blog update post made my heart sink.
The latest update did nothing more then confirm that this is the direction you are moving.

No one is asking you to totally re-design your game but its important you understand that since I have been playing you have done nothing to address the emotional response to gameplay. I do think you will make a balanced game that works with a competitive rule set and it will be great. What I do not believe is that its going to feel good to play. More than anger, disappointment and boredom combined… Frustration is the roadblock to your success with Dirty Bomb.

In my eyes the main culprits of the frustration is the shallow depth of mechanics, high reliance on a limited selection of core individual skills (player skills not mercs), lack of consistency when it comes to the “feel”, High entry skill requirements with a high skill ceiling but shallow skill curve, Contradictions between gamemode design and mechanics implementation and meat grind effect.

I would mention stuff like weapon balance, map design and core systems but it would not be fair.
These are thing that will always frustrate people regardless of what you do…
Suppose its the issue with having a wide verity of situational edges…

If I was to see you start chipping away slowly at the frustrations I mentioned I think my faith would be regenerated.
Your games mechanics can be awful as long as they are not frustrating and people will still love it.

Good luck!
Get stuck… Hire me! lol


(Exedore) #42

What impression of DB’s direction did you get from that post?

We’ve recognised that our communications with the community are not where we want them to be, and while improving, that will take time to fully address. That said, I get the impression that direction is often being inferred from isolated elements incorrectly in the absence of the vision of the big picture. I ask the above question because I can at least correct any glowing differences!


(PixelTwitch) #43

[QUOTE=Exedore;504523]What impression of DB’s direction did you get from that post?

We’ve recognised that our communications with the community are not where we want them to be, and while improving, that will take time to fully address. That said, I get the impression that direction is often being inferred from isolated elements incorrectly in the absence of the vision of the big picture. I ask the above question because I can at least correct any glowing differences![/QUOTE]

In basic terms I got…

Dirty Bomb will be a skill based F2P shooter with a main focus on 5v5 stopwatch for ranked play. Cosmetics and MAYBE Mercs will be the primary way of monetising the game. The stand out feature is the Mercs and their abilities that are similar in concept to current Moba way of doing things. right now you feel like you are most of the way there and you are itching to get onto the polishing phase. We should not expect any more changes to the core game because now the drive is simply on completing systems and adding content.

You also believe on reflection that you may have over complicated things in general and you are now more tempted to remove stuff than add stuff.

You know the game has certain issues and as confident as you seem to come across to the community I really do not think you know where some of these issues really are. Its almost as if you also want to simplify the game in order to make it more accessible but you are hesitant to do so openly as you worry about sparking the current community.

Finally a total assumption is that money is tight and you have convinced yourselves you can get it out the door and improve it later. (spoiler, does not work lol)


When it comes to my personal impressions of the bigger picture…

In both public and competitive play the Stopwatch gamemode is highly flawed both due to the systems around it and the current issues with the maps.
The reason I feel this is contradictions on Goals, Balance and Diversity vs the games mechanics.
GOAL = FASTEST TIME - Yet multiple systems promote/encourage waiting… (spawn system being the main culprit)
BALANCE = OPEN MERC POOL - Yet abilities while balanced in general have not been balanced for stacks. Multiple mercs per match also reduces the number of viable strats. Meta will result in mirrored matches rendering the Merc based system as nothing but a highly restrictive class loadout.
DIVERSITY = If each match be it public or competitive was a canvas then the systems/mechanics used on it is the colour pallet. Right now, due to the open/simple nature… Dirty Bomb is painting its games in nothing more than 50 shades of gray (see what I did there…)

Due to limitations in current systems the skill ceiling on many core skills is borked.
You do not yet reward prediction, movement, timing or control. You skill requirements are simply to much focused on tracking aim… this leaves the game feeling flat.

I could continue but let me just give an example of the “bigger pictures” I see behind each and every element…

Health Regen (not saying its good or bad)

Health Regen was likely put in to reduce frustration and promote moving forward in a fight. Its also a system people are used to and in many respects expect in a modern shooter. It also means that its not instant death if nobody on your team takes a medic and this allows you to get away from the class based system and focus more in individual Mercs.

However, In adding health regen you actually increase the size of the skill gap results by allowing great players with powerful mercs to solo fight at full hp most of the time. The heath regen instead of removing frustration actually makes lower skilled players feel useless because the fights that they have vs better players are cancelled out almost instantly. This adds to be issues of balance because a poor player literally has almost 0 impact on balance (and the player will know this themselves).

While you technically reduce the number of people camping because of LOW HP you actually increase the delay on average players from attempting team based actions and stuff like objectives because after the team fight that opened the chance people want to Regen the health in a safe place.

The health Regen also allows people to go solo and not have to hunt down a medic, when people hunt down medics the medics get lots of points making them more likely to run medic in following games. This would likely keep teams closer together and make people especially like aura with the healing station more useful…

Removing the system would actually have more of a positive effect on the scores and effectiveness of the bottom 25% skilled players than it would do for the top 25%. It would also increase the skill ceiling but reduce the skill gap… (again not saying I want it removed its just an example)


(Exedore) #44

[QUOTE=PixelTwitch;504529]You also believe on reflection that you may have over complicated things in general and you are now more tempted to remove stuff than add stuff.

Its almost as if you also want to simplify the game in order to make it more accessible but you are hesitant to do so openly as you worry about sparking the current community.[/QUOTE]
Most of the first section is I think fairly accurate (except maybe the rushing out the door bit :cool:), but this is kind of the impression that I was wondering about. Accessibility is not the primary driver behind the simplifications, but it’s rather that complexity in areas that we haven’t defined as the core of the game were detracting from refining those what we consider to be important. Some of these elements might very well return, but the foundation needs to be more solid first.

I think there are definitely valid points in the latter section, and there are planned improvements in some of those areas.


(PixelTwitch) #45

[QUOTE=Exedore;504542]Most of the first section is I think fairly accurate (except maybe the rushing out the door bit :cool:), but this is kind of the impression that I was wondering about. Accessibility is not the primary driver behind the simplifications, but it’s rather that complexity in areas that we haven’t defined as the core of the game were detracting from refining those what we consider to be important. Some of these elements might very well return, but the foundation needs to be more solid first.

I think there are definitely valid points in the latter section, and there are planned improvements in some of those areas.[/QUOTE]

I would be interested in knowing what the “core” is…
Please do not take this the wrong way but to me the core is simply put crosshair on head and pull trigger till you or the enemy die.
The game mode does not give the player enough feedback of progression. Heck on maps like Trainyard, Underground and Terminal you only actually have one taste of progression though design (and thats providing you do not get full held on the first objective) The fact it gives so little feedback just means in a moment to moment timescale it feels almost irrelevant.

I did think it would be the Merc based system until I quickly realised that the game does not really change at all based on the Merc you are running.
Again, your games quality is top notch… Just currently very shallow in almost every aspect.

So… What do you guys consider the core…?


(xdc) #46

this ability works best in execution not in obj


(Exedore) #47

/cookie :stroggtapir:


(Exedore) #48

[QUOTE=PixelTwitch;504543]I did think it would be the Merc based system until I quickly realised that the game does not really change at all based on the Merc you are running.

So… What do you guys consider the core…?[/QUOTE]
Basically, addressing this.


(tokamak) #49

“It’s okay Dave! Defuse the charge first”
“That’s not it Bob, you’re lying on top of it”
“Oh…I see”
“I promise I’ll make it quick and painless Bob, thanks for everything”
“It’s been an hononour Da… BLAM”
The C4 has been defused


(BomBaKlaK) #50

This “bug” happen to many times, every time there is someone down on an Objective.


(PixelTwitch) #51

very glad to hear it and excited to see your solutions, good luck!


(PixelTwitch) #52

just make the help up the priority on the use key and make each use command a multiple trace so you can help up “behind” the useables interaction box. Currently using this solution would not effect any other systems due to the height of all useables compared to dead bodies… To ensure double fix to this make sure that dead bodies do not overlap with the interaction volumes.

Job would be a good en.


(tokamak) #53

That would indeed be the most economical way of managing the limited amount of buttons on the gamepad.


(onYn) #54

I seriously wonder what people think when they say that they don´t expect changing the whole game design, while suggesting to do so some posts later…

However, I really look forward to the time where we all know, how you (SD) want the game to become, so that we can focus on it instead of doing pretty much nothing then trying to feel important while giving almost useless feedback (at least that´s what I feel I am doing often).

PS: where is that blog? I couldn´t find the link ^^


(PixelTwitch) #55

[QUOTE=onYn;504654]I seriously wonder what people think when they say that they don´t expect changing the whole game design, while suggesting to do so some posts later…

However, I really look forward to the time where we all know, how you (SD) want the game to become, so that we can focus on it instead of doing pretty much nothing then trying to feel important while giving almost useless feedback (at least that´s what I feel I am doing often).

PS: where is that blog? I couldn´t find the link ^^[/QUOTE]

its was not a blog he just means a big post… its in the announcements section called “state of play”


(onYn) #56

Thy sir :slight_smile:


(xdc) #57

btw, I have been waiting for Execution only week, and even TDM.

Some mercs are stronger/weaker in execution


(BomBaKlaK) #58

larger maps is for me one of the solution for the Help up ability, let me explain :

  • Longer travel time give the oppotunity to make more routes, more acces to an objective
  • That’s mean Help up is really interesting in some situation due to this travel time.
  • Easier to balance this just by moving the spawn of the 2 teams, not only spawn time adjustment (Spawncamp maps like it is now !)
  • You can have some real tactics with multiple routes, not only 100% lemming rush and then help up can take another dimension and be really usefull in some situations
  • No need of 3,4 or 5 Obj, you can Focus on 2 good obj design, and put more real interesting side objs !
  • Bye bye meatgrind effect, due to the larger scale. I dont want huge BF maps but more open maps are needed

Maps is for me the main problem as usual …