Have questions about Lightwave modeling for ET maps

[Cannon_Fodder.lang]

Greetings,

I am a Modeler for the Lang DevTeam and currently working on the map-project Pitch Black. I am an experienced modeler, but have never done anything for Enemy Territory or for a game environment.

I need some help with concepts and technical issues for Enemy Territory vehicle construction for a custom ET map. I have read docs, help files, forum posts, books and other resources but I have not been able to find the complete answers to a few problems. I have found great information to give me a general idea of what to do but most of it does not pertain to Lightwave or doesn’t have enough info for me to understand how it applies to my situation. :???:

My particular task is to create a working model of an escortable, blastable, repairable locomotive to follow a track, similar to the tank in Goldrush and Fueldump, it will ride on rails similar to the tug in Railgun.

USING THE FOLLOWING PROGRAMS:
Lightwave 7.0 (with Mike Bristol’s MD3 import/Export plug-ins -cant get md3 export to work) for model construction, object material division, animation) LWO output
Milkshape 1.6.6 (for file conversion and texture/material/imagemap/shader prep) LWO input, MD3 output
Unwrap3D 2.13 (for texture/material/imagemap/shader assignment)
Photoshop 5.5 (for imagemap creation) JPG and TGA
GTKRadiant 1.4.0 for ET. MD3 input, MAP, BSP output

WHAT I DO KNOW:
I understand the modeling, material assignment and animation process in Lightwave, Opening a LWO in Milkshape and creating a QC file for MD3 export out of Milkshape, as well as loading a misc_model MD3 into radiant and how to set the modelscale perimeter in the GTK Entity Window. It seems there are some gaps in my knowledge that are keeping this process from working properly.

Misc_models need to use triangular polygons in order to be visable in GTKRadiant.

Milkshape has a 1024 x 1024 x 1024 (512 in each direction from center) unit restriction for models.

WHAT I NEED HELP WITH:
I have no clue about the proportions in relation to Lightwave and then GTKRadient. Clearly the model must look realistic, and must fit into an existing environment already created by another Lang DevTeam member.

What is the scale of units for GTKRadiant (1 map grid unit = 1") vs. Lightwave (adjustible scale, but 1" is 78% smaller than radiant?) vs. Milkshape (arbitrary?)

When I bring the model which has negative spaces (windows, doors) and curved surfaces (curved train cab roof with overhang and area similar to wheel well) into Milkshape it seems to have issues and creates jumbled polygons that cross the open spaces. What could be the problem?

I would like to take a brush or part of the final map from GTKRadiant and import it into Lightwave for size comparison, path creation for extrusion of one piece train rails for entire map and final vehicle spline path back in GTKRadiant for scripting. Is this possible? Is there anyway to import brushes or curves from GTKRadient into Lightwave7?

Do material properties assigned in Lightwave transfer into Milkshape, Unwrap3d and GTK Radiant? Or should I just use Lightwave to designate the different materials and use Milkshape or Unwrap3d to assign specularity, reflectivity, ambiance, color, etc.?

Does the animation info for the model transfer from Lightwave into Milkshape or GTK radiant (like the pump in oasis). Or is the animation created only in Milkshape?

I could use a rough outline of the steps involved and run down on the requirements (dos and don’ts) for file type and object size restrictions, import/export perimeters into Milkshape, Unwrap3d, and then Radiant, etc. and when and in what program to do the model animation, material partitioning and image assignment, tag assignment, animation, shader files.

I think I am missing a few key steps and I don’t know where else to find the answers. Any of the modelers that worked on the official maps or other people that have experience with the same tools care to help me out?

Also, I could really use someone that I could chat with to discuss this project. Again I know how to model, but this particular project is extremely comprehensive. Having someone that has gone through the same steps and could give me a good idea how I should refine my work, would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,
Matt

Lang DevTeam Member
www.langstas.com

[sock]

Welcome to the SD forums! You certainly have alot of questions and it will probably best if you break them down into smaller threads.

Here goes on some of them…

My particular task is to create a working model of an escortable, blastable, repairable locomotive to follow a track, similar to the tank in Goldrush and Fueldump, it will ride on rails similar to the tug in Railgun.

If you want to creating a static object to follow a script_mover path then you can use the LWO importer in GTK1.4. The importer works like the ASE importer and compiles the model straight into the BSP.

If you want to create something like the tug in Railgun you can target the LWO model at a script_mover and all the LWO surfaces will become part of the script_mover. Then you can use the script_mover as the clipbrush_mesh. Create a rough outline of clip brushes, one origin brush and turn that into a script_mover.

If you want basic animations like wheels going round, use the shader animation commands. Examples in the fueldump/goldrush script. Make the wheels a certain material/shader and access them from the script.

What is the scale of units for GTKRadiant (1 map grid unit = 1") vs. Lightwave (adjustible scale, but 1" is 78% smaller than radiant?) vs. Milkshape (arbitrary?)

Scale is usually 1m in LW equals 1" in GTK. But remember you can use the model scale parameter on the misc_model so you can fix it afterwards. But if the model is too big then create it from several model segments.

I would like to take a brush or part of the final map from GTKRadiant and import it into Lightwave for size comparison, path creation for extrusion of one piece train rails for entire map and final vehicle spline path back in GTKRadiant for scripting. Is this possible? Is there anyway to import brushes or curves from GTKRadient into Lightwave7?

There is no direct route from GTK to LW. You could compile a test map with the -compile option and generate an ASE file, but the only route I know from ASE to LWO is Deep Exploration and thats loads of money. I know a friend who might have an answer to this but he is not online atm, will have to come back to you on this point.

Does the animation info for the model transfer from Lightwave into Milkshape or GTK radiant (like the pump in oasis). Or is the animation created only in Milkshape?

All the animations were created in MAX and are part of the MD3 file. You have various script commands to start/stop/play the animations but they have to be part of the MD3 file in the first place.

If you want to create animations in ET the model has to be a MD3 file and no other format. The next problem is generating the tags for the MD3 file. Plus you will need to export them. Check the top sticky thread on tutorials and stuff, it has info on a MD3 tag exporter.

The tanks in Fueldump/Goldrush were MD3’s because of the gun turret feature and needed tags to attach things to. Otherwise you can use the simpler method of the LWO importer.

Sock
:moo:

[kat]

I’ve tried most of the apps linked to below to varing degrees of sucess but the one you should really use isn’t listed because I can’t find the link to it… [Homer]d’oh…![/Homer]

file converters
crossroads - http://home.europa.com/~keithr/crossroads/
accutrans - http://www.micromouse.ca/
misc converters - http://centralsource.com/blender/intheworks/converters/3d/
3Dlinks converter listings - http://www.3dlinks.com/links.cfm?categoryid=1&subcategoryid=11
3D Object - http://web.axelero.hu/karpo/
converter.tk - http://medlem.spray.se/converters/

free/shareware apps
anim8tor - http://www.anim8or.com/main/index.html
3D Windows - http://www.tb-software.com/
Blender3D - http://www.blender3d.org

LEET - http://www.bpeers.com/software/leet/ imports .map files and exports them to DFX, 3DS (& ASE)

[EDIT] - this is your best option for getting *.map file (or setions there of) into lightwave very quickly as one of the base export formats is ‘known’ to LW so you effectivly bypass the whole ASE conversion thing. I can’t recal how robust the ASE export option was on the version that’s avaiable.

Command prompt converter (command lines from DOS box) - http://www.psc.edu/~burkardt/src/ivcon/ivcon.html

There is an old version of DeepExploration floating around on the net but I can’t remember where I found it but it basically converts most of the main format out there - if you can track it down that would be your best bet.

MilkShape issues -
The issues you’ve had with using MilkShape is because part of the model(s) were either outside or larger than the 1024 bounding box space you hava available for use. Basically this means an modeled object can’t be bigger than 1024 (world/Radiant grid) units accross or have any part of said model 512 units beyond the point of origin (grid center in MilkShape).

Animation issues -

[EDIT] sock answered this above…!

Model Scale -
In addition to what sock said above you can use imported brushwork as your scale measure if you want to get things accurate from the get go or use as a foil to work of to get a shape or object

heh also, you may want to add some communication details to your profile so peeps can contact you… icq, MSN, yahoo… etc…

[Java.Lang]

Hey guys, thanks for getting back with us.

I am the main mapper for the project whilst Cannon handles the modeling side and we also have someone doing the scripting for the models.

One question I have from what you posted sock, is what would be the advantages or disadvantages of using the goldrush-model system (static object to follow a script mover path) over the railgun-model system (targeting the LWO model at a script mover)?

I think the way we are heading is much the same as the tanks in both Goldrush and Fuel Dump. This is a train that is escortable and can be damaged. The only similarity to Railgun’s tug is that it is on tracks and must really have the path made well to look realistic.

Here is another question. Given that this is a train riding on rails, would you suggest to make the train body a static model and then fabricate the wheels from brushes or do you think that the wheels would be better off being a animation similar to the tracks on the tanks?

This is a daunting project overall, and what we could really use is someone to guide us in the direction that would be best concerning time.

There is probably any number of ways to handle this, but with yours (sock), or other members of this community’s experience doing this very thing, it may make our venture that much easier.

What I could personally use is a short description of how someone who has experience in this area, would go about working on this project, if they were actually doing it.

[kat]

make the wheels as models and then ‘tag’ them to script_movers (which is what sock mentioned above) which you can then have follow a path, you’ll have to play around with the timing but you can get them to rotate via the script… much better looking objects than brushes… bleh

What may be tricky though is making all the individual objects corner without dislocating as they move, it gets worse the longer the object is iirc…

[Cannon_Fodder.lang]

Thanks All, for the replys. (Hi Java)

Quite a bit of helpful guidance and explanations! I will let you all know of my progress and any info that others might find helpful.

Time to start researching and testing again.

[sock]

One question I have from what you posted sock, is what would be the advantages or disadvantages of using the goldrush-model system (static object to follow a script mover path) over the railgun-model system (targeting the LWO model at a script mover)?

The main advantage of the goldrush/fueldump model is that it has tags and can have things attached to it. Like for example players and guns which can be used. The animation of the tracks were simply a shader because making the wheels physically rotate would have been too expensive.

The tug from railgun was originally a MD3 but then was baked into a func_static. The reason is that its simply, less resources to distribute and the object did not need players/guns attaching to it. It still needs to move around a spline path via path corners and has a trigger brush around it for players to interact with.

I think the way we are heading is much the same as the tanks in both Goldrush and Fuel Dump. This is a train that is escortable and can be damaged. The only similarity to Railgun’s tug is that it is on tracks and must really have the path made well to look realistic.

If the train is going to be a very long like a traditional steam train and carriages then it will be a fairly straight section of track anyway because of turning issues.

Here is another question. Given that this is a train riding on rails, would you suggest to make the train body a static model and then fabricate the wheels from brushes or do you think that the wheels would be better off being a animation similar to the tracks on the tanks?

Make the wheels from a model and animate the side of the wheels to go round and round. Not sure if you can bake several models into a script mover at once but it maybe worth trying, it would not take too long to test.

What I could personally use is a short description of how someone who has experience in this area, would go about working on this project, if they were actually doing it.

You don’t seem to be giving away clues of what you are doing so it hard to help with that question. But speaking generally you should try this:

• Get all your new tech stuff working first in test boxmaps. Get the train into the game and moving along a simple spline path. Just use a box until the modeller has finished with the exact model.
• Plan out your map layout so you don’t get any nasty surprises later on.
• Build a blockout map first with all game features complete. All scripting as well.
• Test until you are all happy with gameplay and flow.
• Add detail and make it look pretty!
• Test for FPS issues and finaly tweaks
• Then release it for public beta testing.

Sock
:moo:

[Java.Lang]

You don’t seem to be giving away clues of what you are doing so it hard to help with that question.

Sorry about that. What I was referring to was the process our modeler could go through to make his life easier.

If the train is going to be a very long like a traditional steam train and carriages then it will be a fairly straight section of track anyway because of turning issues.

Yes, we have already discussed in depth the concerns of having a long train, this particular train will only be an engine (a shortened version of an old german engine) with it carrying one small car behind it.

As you can see here, the environment is already done, the track turns are generally gradual, although I have already planned for any problems that may arise with the train turning and we can work that out if/when that happens.

post edited to resize screenshot sorry keke

[Chruker]

Wow. Just that little screenshot looks great - well I love trains. So just seeing tracks on a map gets my heart pumping

I can’t see it on the screenshot, but if you’re in need of some signals for your railroad you may wonna have a look at this post: http://www.splashdamage.com/index.php?name=pnPHPbb2&file=viewtopic&p=63209#63209

With regards to the train. Its hard to say with just that screenshot in mind - but those turns seem very sharp. The carts/wagons of the train may be able to handle them if the wheels are allowed to turn seperately from the body. However a steam train usually has a lot of wheels on a rigid body, so handling those curves without some of the wheels not following the tracks could pose a problem. This all depends on the lenght and wheel arrangements.

Up in the right corner are those 4 train carriges parked on a sidetrack? If yes is one of those cars the same size as the train is going to be? If yes, could you make a screenshot of that carriges including the entire turn below.

[Java.Lang]

Up in the right corner are those 4 train carriges parked on a sidetrack? If yes is one of those cars the same size as the train is going to be? If yes, could you make a screenshot of that carriges including the entire turn below.

Although there are plenty of screenshots of this porject at the URL below, I found this one relevant to your querie.

[Detoeni]

The carrage in the background should be able to follow the tracks if its made as three parts, boggie x 2 and the main body each with there own origin point in the model. With the train, it will be harder to do unless its very short, we got round that problem with our wolf map by hidding all the train wheels with armour plating.

edit speelin