Gunplay (and movement speed I guess)

(shirosae) #1

So I’ve had a few hours playtime now, and I thought I’d say some stuff. Disclaimer: I’ve really only put time into Engineer and Soldier.

Soldier really struggles with strafing during firefights with the heavy weapons. It’s quite possible to hold your own, but it involves hiding lots and catching people off guard. You can make soldier work more aggressively, but it means using soldier2’s SMG primary. It’s just so much faster moving and quicker scoping and faster firing that you can just about keep up with those shotgun engineers darting all over the place.

Conversely, I’ve found shotgun Eng1 actually recaptures a little of that old feel, because you do need to track to get that one-shot kill. The lack of movement hindrance also tends to make Eng pretty good at evasion. I think this is why we’re seeing the ‘scout’ type players on the server going towards Eng lots.

I was putting some effort into using the secondary HMG on soldier2 today on Whitechapel, and found out that if I just camp in an unusual position, I can scope with it and get 5:1 K/D ratio without too much trouble, because people just couldn’t get out of my sights quickly enough.

The old ET/QWET dancing/headshot tracking subgame just isn’t there; the weapon fire rate completely overwhelms evasion speed at anything further than shotgun range, especially for the heavier weapons.

Right now the guns kinda play a lot like Counterstrike with ironsights. First to fire usually wins with most guns in a face-to-face confrontation, unless you’re up close against a shotgun. Seems like the most reliable way to get kills is to keep flanking, and grab kills from the side/behind.

It’s not unfun, but it is missing that gunplay thing ET had.

I think the weapon fire rate needs to come down on a lot of weapons, and sideways-sprinting turned on at least. I’d also like to see the transition time from hip to scoped reduced a bit too, so it becomes possible to pop in and out of scope during firefights without needing to commit so much time to it.

EDIT: I’d also like to see what happens if the gun-weight movement penalty was turned off for strafing speed so it was flat across the board.

(INF3RN0) #2

I completely agree with this! Slower RoF should help to both lead to more drawn out gun fights as well as making aim tracking feel more important.

(Humate) #3

What a marvellous thread!

edit: You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to shirosae again

(Humate) #4

Another thing that stands out due to evasiveness being toned down, is the power of chip dmg.

If youve taken prior hits but avoided the fight, you more or less are a free kill on the next duel. This means the game will evolve into medic whoring even more so than previous SD [etqw] titles to mitigate this.

Conversely in et and etqw, this wasnt an issue. You could hold your own at lower hp levels.

(Rex) #5

Oh I totally share your opinion shirosae. I haven’t checked this thread before posting my opinion, but I wrote almost the same.

(tangoliber) #6

I agree with this. :slight_smile:

(Humate) #7

BTW if you havent noticed you receive 50% health on health regen.
Even with 50% you cant compete with a player at full health, as theres no real way to dodge out of the bulletfire.

Remove regen alltogether.
Up strafe speed, reduce rate of fire.
Increase crouch speed to avoid hs
Increase jump height to avoid hs
Speed up the spread reset time

(tokamak) #8

I don’t really get it though. How is it it that people find it too hard to track targets while at the same time they find the strafing too slow? I mean, fair enough if it’s just one of these, but both? Doesn’t increasing the strafing speed only make it more difficult to track players? Which of these is more important?

Personally I don’t really mind the slow strafing speed. It means there’s a relevant difference between dodging while firing and fleeing. Right now there’s a distinct advantage and disadvantage to turning away from your foe and running straight to a safer place. If strafing speed is increased then it’s just always better to strafe towards cover while returning fire.

If strafing is to be increased then it will have to come at an accuracy cost to keep this difference relevant.

(shirosae) #9

I find it too easy to track targets, not too hard. Players should move quicker so gunfights aren’t over the moment I pull the trigger.

Yes, it does make it more difficult to track; that’s why I want it. That tracking skill is a requirement for extended face-to-face gunfights.

Right now, flanking gets you far more kills than straight up combat, because players don’t have enough time to react to getting hit. I like that flanking is there, but the almost complete absence of straight up gunfights is disappointing. I don’t want to spend all of my time hiding behind boxes and shooting at people who don’t know I’m there. That’s a good way to start an engagement, but it gets really boring if that’s so much more effective than dancing that eventually no-one does anything else.

No it won’t, because right now if you catch your target out in the open and you don’t completely suck at aiming, they’ll almost always die unless they get really lucky and someone else shoots you in the back before you shoot them in the back.

Of course it’ll stay relevant; catching people by surprise always gives you a few free headshots and the ability to engage when it suits you. The entire exchange shouldn’t be a succession of people being instakilled by someone else who happens to be hiding in the right spot.

(tokamak) #10

Yeah but now we’re drifting into how map design factors in to this. If you have no problems wit tracking I can see why you want more strafing, but I think people who want both really need to consider what they actually want.

(shirosae) #11

No amount of map design is going to change that kills are so quick right now that dancing doesn’t work well enough outside melee range. Add in all the cover you like; it’s still people hiding behind boxes and not shooting face to face.

No, London Bridge right now is really good, and we shouldn’t spoil that for the sake of having CS-level fire-rates and movement speed. The campy-sneaky aspect of the game is there, and the sheer number of flanking routes pretty much ensures that it’ll survive.

If we can get medium-close quarters gunplay working on those maps with an engine this smooth, we have the makings of an incredibly satisfying game right here. The maps are looking very fun, and they’ll be amazing if we tweak things enough to allow face to face combat.

(tokamak) #12

Map design has everything to do with how fast you nail a kill. But yeah I do agree with that ideal. It’s just really challenging to get both the tactical and the last-stand duels into one game.

(shirosae) #13

Map design would have everything to do with kill speed, if it wasn’t for the fact that you can take someone from full health to nothing in about a quarter of a second, and the average reflex time of a human is about a fifth of a second, and the delay when you start to move is about a tenth of a second.

You could maybe curtail the campy-shooting-from-behind excesses the game has right now by forcing people to approach from the front by just blocking off all of those long views and overlapping routes and vertical-ness, but those are some of the things I find most impressive about these maps. Don’t treat them as a hindrance when they could be amazing features.

The maps work. The engine works. Don’t squish everything else to fudge the gunplay when all you need to do is tweak the gunplay itself.

(DarkangelUK) #14

I think the strafing speed is also affected by the delay from pressing the movement key to reaching full pace. If you’re dodging side to side, you’re barely hitting full pace before you’re suddenly switching direction.

(dommafia) #15

Yup, they must do away with that. slower ROF and faster strafing, even if not all the way to ET levels. This is what made ET and QW fun and challenging. You felt you could run around anywhere on the map and if someone surprised you, there was still a chance to fight them and kill them if you out aimed and moved better than they did. I’m not too fond of the restricted movement overall. I believe tokamak put it best, feels clunky.

(H0RSE) #16

I think the ROF is fine right now. I would just make each shot do less damage, or give players more health. I also think hip firing is too inaccurate right now.

(tokamak) #17

Mind you, after playing a few rounds of Raven Shield again that game felt smooth compared to this so there’s definitely a lot to gain here.

(dommafia) #18

Hip firing is perfect imo.

(INF3RN0) #19

^ works for me too.

(tangoliber) #20

I think the hipfire is great… Of course, I’d would love an SMG with 0 spread or spread bloom, low rate of fire, low damage, and big clip… That would be fun.