Giving shotguns viability for competition.

(Eox) #1

Okay, so I think I found a not so bad solution in order to make shotguns less lackluster in a competitive environment.

I think everyone knows this : shotguns fires 11 pellets in a star shaped pattern. This star shaped pattern is very regular and does not seem to vary from a shot to another. The shotgun’s damage per shot value is divided between every pellets, so the Ahnuld-12 with his 77 damage per shot would deal 7 damage per pellet. Due to this, shotguns suffer from two unforgiving flaws :

  • Your DPS output falls over distance extremely quickly, almost in an exponential way.
  • At some point (an not such a far one), headshots simply stops from being effective, because too few pellets will connect on the enemy’s head. This happen at a point where any other weapon is still capable to put all of its clip in your face.

The goal of my solution would be to adress those two issues, giving shotguns a more effective DPS at mid range, and skill index them at longer ranges by making headshots much more valuable. Without turning those into a sniper rifle of course.

Here’s my idea : decrease the damage value of all pellets but the center one, and add damage to the pellet at the center of the pattern.

This way, shotguns would still keep a higher efficiency if you manage to get someone’s head than if you shoot the body, giving shotguns a higher skill celling. You would lose less DPS over distance as long as you hit that center pellet, giving you better abilities at mid range fighting, and allowing you some more consistant poke damage at further ranges. So instead of loosing 90% of your DPS past 20 meters, you would just expect to loose 30% (don’t try to calculate this, those numbers are coming from my butt : it’s just an exemple). You would still get an horrendous DPS at range though, but at least you would be able to deal some dissuasive blows.

Of course this could come with more changes in the balance. I’ll let you suggest more things about that.

What do you guys think ?

(Resine) #2

Either this, the bullets inside the “star” would deal twice the damage of the bullets on the outside corners.
Or make the spread tighter in general.
It’s like they buffed an Anhuld to be better at the range right? It might be only me, but it didn’t change that much since the spread of the star is too huge to be consistent.
The main reason that shotguns are not used in the comp, is their range.

(Eox) #3

[quote=“Resine;86014”]Either this, the bullets inside the “star” would deal twice the damage of the bullets on the outside corners.
Or make the spread tighter in general.
It’s like they buffed an Anhuld to be better at the range right? It might be only me, but it didn’t change that much since the spread of the star is too huge to be consistent.
The main reason that shotguns are not used in the comp, is their range.[/quote]

Giving more power depending of how far the pellet is from the center is also a good idea. However I’d be careful with a straight spread buff : a lot of pub players are upset about shotguns able to deal huge damage, to the point that some can one shot low hp caracters without even aiming at the body. I find the “center bullet” idea (and your small variation) more interesting, because it gives shotguns more skill indexing and try to solve the main issues. However we could still combine the “center pellet” ideas with a slightly tighter spread if needed.

(Resine) #4

[quote=“Eox;86022”]
Giving more power depending of how far the pellet is from the center is also a good idea. However I’d be careful with a straight spread buff : a lot of pub players are upset about shotguns able to deal huge damage, to the point that some can one shot low hp caracters without even aiming at the body. I find the “center bullet” idea (and your small variation) more interesting, because it gives shotguns more skill indexing and try to solve the main issues. However we could still combine the “center pellet” ideas with a slightly tighter spread if needed.[/quote]

I really support this idea, my biggest concern are the pug’s players. They already complain that the shotguns are too strong on the range, when they are pretty much useless.

(Eox) #5

[quote=“Resine;86034”][quote=“Eox;86022”]
Giving more power depending of how far the pellet is from the center is also a good idea. However I’d be careful with a straight spread buff : a lot of pub players are upset about shotguns able to deal huge damage, to the point that some can one shot low hp caracters without even aiming at the body. I find the “center bullet” idea (and your small variation) more interesting, because it gives shotguns more skill indexing and try to solve the main issues. However we could still combine the “center pellet” ideas with a slightly tighter spread if needed.[/quote]

I really support this idea, my biggest concern are the pug’s players. They already complain that the shotguns are too strong on the range, when they are pretty much useless.[/quote]

A solution for this could be to reduce shotgun’s damage, and give a bit more RPM and a bit bigger clip size to shotguns to compensate for the DPS and ammo efficiency loss. No shotgun would hit over 80 in the body. Like this, new players should not feel like Shotguns are utterly OP… At least I hope so.

(watsyurdeal) #6

Pub players will complain no matter what because it kills them, once they use something they change their tune.

The problems with shotguns being viable…that in itself sorta explains the contradicttion. Pubbers hate shotguns yet they are not viable in comp, why? Because they lack not only diverisity, but power and range.

Personally I think the Remburg is the biggest problem in terms of suck, the Ahnuld is actually…very very good right now.

The Hollunds seems to be a combination of both guns but the Remburg’s damage output considering it’s spread overall…is really lacking.

I feel like the Remburg could simply do more damage per pellet. And maybe get a slower rate of fire than the Hollunds, something like 0.75 would be a good way to give that gun the umph it needs in the right places.

(Resine) #7

Most of the games focus on the spread pattern and it’s size, being stucked in the endless loop of problems. Where solving one creates 10 new ones. Why not make shotguns a single powerful pellet? It would improve the skill level as missing this one would cause no damage at all and would be easier to balance with damage drop-off mechanics that are already in the game.
There is a lot of ideas to make them viable but until we will try we will never know. Sadly the thing i fear the most is that even if shotguns will be different but will perform as good as Smgs people’s with the lower skill level will destroy it with their whining.

(Eox) #8

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;86126”]Pub players will complain no matter what because it kills them, once they use something they change their tune.

The problems with shotguns being viable…that in itself sorta explains the contradicttion. Pubbers hate shotguns yet they are not viable in comp, why? Because they lack not only diverisity, but power and range.

Personally I think the Remburg is the biggest problem in terms of suck, the Ahnuld is actually…very very good right now.

The Hollunds seems to be a combination of both guns but the Remburg’s damage output considering it’s spread overall…is really lacking.

I feel like the Remburg could simply do more damage per pellet. And maybe get a slower rate of fire than the Hollunds, something like 0.75 would be a good way to give that gun the umph it needs in the right places.[/quote]

I wouldn’t call the Ahnuld fine, as any other shotgun. Ahnuld is without a doubt the best shotgun you can get due to it’s tight spread, but as long as there’s that headshot issue, it’s not fine IMO. Shotguns need that skill indexing, if you hit someone’s head you should be rewarded : I don’t find it okay that there’s a point where shooting at the body is more rewarding than getting the head. :confused:

Remburg dealing more damage per pellet (so more damage per shot) would make the newbies riot a lot in my opinion. Even with less RPM, because I think those players base themselves more on the damage per shot than the overall DPS.

[quote=“Resine;86352”]Most of the games focus on the spread pattern and it’s size, being stucked in the endless loop of problems. Where solving one creates 10 new ones. Why not make shotguns a single powerful pellet? It would improve the skill level as missing this one would cause no damage at all and would be easier to balance with damage drop-off mechanics that are already in the game.
There is a lot of ideas to make them viable but until we will try we will never know. Sadly the thing i fear the most is that even if shotguns will be different but will perform as good as Smgs people’s with the lower skill level will destroy it with their whining.[/quote]

Not sure about this. This would solve the issue of course, but is there any game where the shotguns shoots a single, huge slug ? It feels wierds IMO. :confused:

Shotguns should still be beatable by SMGs at mid range. But the work for shotguns should not be as painful as it is actually (Ahnuld users will have less problems though). Of course they should dominate at point blank, Ahnuld aside. Shotguns need that short range weakness, but that short range weakness should be tuned down, and have some limit.

About those people against shotguns, there may be no solution. We should think about something that makes shotguns less “pubstompy” without making them less viable, but it’s not our main goal. :confused:

I didn’t noticed much people rioting againt shotties recently, and it has been a while since I got trashtalked by some guy because I shotgunned them. Maybe the new players won’t be that much an issue after all…

(omegaskorpion) #9

Well, in my oppinion i find the Ahnuld in very good place right now. Rof buff realy made it a lot better.

(Amerika) #10

Shotguns traditionally tend to be the easier weapons for new players and less aim gifted players to use and still be somewhat successful. This is also true in DB. However, the near universal downside is that this typically comes at the cost of situational effectiveness which usually revolves around range. Shotguns in DB are very good. But they don’t scale up in competitive play nearly as much as other weapons that have better range. And if you made them scale up you’d quickly cross the threshold of them being overpowered but also potentially make them harder for new players to use.

So I don’t see this changing any time soon. The Ahnuld appears to be the sort of in-between shotgun which might be SD trying to solve this issue. Also, the Blishlok or Hochfir are options for classes who don’t have access to the Ahnuld (and one that does). So based on this I’d wager that the aura/proxy default shotguns are not ever touched. But I could see the Ahnuld and the Blishlok getting adjusted more.

(omegaskorpion) #11

[quote=“Amerika;86504”]Shotguns traditionally tend to be the easier weapons for new players and less aim gifted players to use and still be somewhat successful. This is also true in DB. However, the near universal downside is that this typically comes at the cost of situational effectiveness which usually revolves around range. Shotguns in DB are very good. But they don’t scale up in competitive play nearly as much as other weapons that have better range. And if you made them scale up you’d quickly cross the threshold of them being overpowered but also potentially make them harder for new players to use.

So I don’t see this changing any time soon. The Ahnuld appears to be the sort of in-between shotgun which might be SD trying to solve this issue. Also, the Blishlok or Hochfir are options for classes who don’t have access to the Ahnuld (and one that does). So based on this I’d wager that the aura/proxy default shotguns are not ever touched. But I could see the Ahnuld and the Blishlok getting adjusted more.[/quote]

I think the Hollunds needs major buff. Since its the worst shotgun now.
They could buff the mag size to 8-10 which could solve this problem.
Then again decreasing the damage to 66 and increasing rof along with ammo size would make it the fastest shotgun… hmmm…

(Dawnlazy) #12

Make ADS tighten the spread a lot more. Or enable an alt-fire mechanic where the player can load slugs that would be effective at maybe the same range as SMGs.

(Szakalot) #13

yup, combine that with decent range and two-hit kills, ahnuld can actually compete with automatic weapons.

While shotguns require close range, they also benefit greatly from peek-a-boom tactics. Little more situational, but also excelling at their comfort zones.

I don’t think its a problem that situational weapons/mercs are not as often used (if ever) as the ‘meta’.

(Eox) #14

[quote=“Amerika;86504”]Shotguns traditionally tend to be the easier weapons for new players and less aim gifted players to use and still be somewhat successful. This is also true in DB. However, the near universal downside is that this typically comes at the cost of situational effectiveness which usually revolves around range. Shotguns in DB are very good. But they don’t scale up in competitive play nearly as much as other weapons that have better range. And if you made them scale up you’d quickly cross the threshold of them being overpowered but also potentially make them harder for new players to use.

So I don’t see this changing any time soon. The Ahnuld appears to be the sort of in-between shotgun which might be SD trying to solve this issue. Also, the Blishlok or Hochfir are options for classes who don’t have access to the Ahnuld (and one that does). So based on this I’d wager that the aura/proxy default shotguns are not ever touched. But I could see the Ahnuld and the Blishlok getting adjusted more.[/quote]

I don’t think my “center bullet” idea would make the shotties fall into the overpowered group or make the job harder for newbies that much. Or at least it’ll depend of how much the center bullet would be powerful.

I have to admit, I indeed felt like Ahnuld was pretty well rounded since the patch, but I think it could also be a sort of “placebo effect”. I’d wait a bit before thinking the weapon is in a good state. Was the Ahnuld played in competitive before those changes ?

(Resine) #15

I disagree, i find shotguns much harder to use than any SMG.

(Amerika) #16

I have to admit, I indeed felt like Ahnuld was pretty well rounded since the patch, but I think it could also be a sort of “placebo effect”. I’d wait a bit before thinking the weapon is in a good state. Was the Ahnuld played in competitive before those changes ?

Nah, it wasn’t. It was always the Blishlok. But with the changes to the Ahnuld that weapon could potentially gain traction. I’m thinking about breaking it out soon as I’ve never really used it myself. I have what can only be called a near allergic reaction when using shotguns in almost any game. The Soldier of Fortune 2 shotgun made me pretty much hate the things.

I disagree, i find shotguns much harder to use than any SMG.[/quote]

I was talking about games in general, not just DB. But the shotgun in this game is a lot more friendly than the Blishlok for new players. If I come around a corner and run into a newer player with a Blishlok they die 10 out of 10 times. If they have a shotgun they can sometimes win. But my opinion obviously wouldn’t cover 100% of everyone. Just many of them who don’t have experience in higher TTK games like DB.