General balance feedback from this week-end :


(subtleChain) #1

General balance feedback from the week-end :

After spending a lot of time playing dirty bomb this week-end (and loving it), I’ve got several things in mind that could definitely help the game balance wise.
Keep in mind that I haven’t be doing any scrims, I’ve been playing a lot of pubs and I’ve also played a fair amount of games with a couple friends which allowed us to do some coordinated stuff. Enough to get ourselves an opinion about the way the meta is likely to evolve in a competitive environment. We would have loved to get some more experience with it before coming to conclusions but I figured we had some pretty solid feedback already. I tried to keep both pub play and competitive setting in mind while making this list.

But first of all, a short disclaimer since people will definitely respond by questioning my skill. Responding « you think it’s OP because you suck » is easy, and the sad thing is that it’s often true. Still, I believe I’m very decent at the game, I’d say I top the scoreboard most of the time during pub play, 1,5-2 K/D in the worst scenario and 4+ K/D when the team is flowing well.
But, I am in no way excellent, I struggle versus top tier players and I get bopped a lot by friends with a strong arena FPS background. I guess we all ran into amazing Vassili players who headshot a lot and go 27/2, well that’s not me.

  • Class analysis :
    I’ll start with the strong and end with the bad.

    Aura
    Her health station is kind of insane, the radius and regeneration are huge and it increases the TTK so much that it pretty much brakes the game at a higher level. Think about TF2’s Uber except that instead of promoting agression and movement it encourages static gameplay, chokepoints and AOE spam, but I’ll come to that later.

    The thing about Aura is that she’s ridiculously as a duelist and a killing class, while being the best healer at the same time.
    As a duelist she shines thanks to her station and rules close range engagements, its start-up time is fast enough for it to be dropped agressively right before contesting a corner, or even straight in the open if you need to. Dueling an Aura in close quarter you have two choices : Focus the station first which takes freaking forever to destroy and hope that she misses several shotgun shots, or try to out DPS the station which is pretty fucking hard if you don’t land a bunch of headshots (keep in mind she has insane ADAD speed).
    I mentioned her as a duelist with pub play in mind, but she has even stronger teamplay oriented assets : on top of her station, she’s fast enough to insta rez people in close quarter situation.

    I was lucky enough to draw an aura card with pump shotty, 30% health regen buff and 20% healing radius size : this shit was broken as hell. Couple the regen with a Fragger and you’ve got a guy with stupid tanking abilities and stupid killing power.
    Finally, the pump shotty as Aura seemed a bit strong as it has a very tight spread and allows her to extend her effective range to 10+ meters. The shotties are very good in this game and I think a tight spread makes sense for someone like Proxy. But I’m not sure it currently works to have such killing power on a class that’s also the best healer.

    How to balance her :
    -Make it so damage interrupts the health regen, you only get healed if you didn’t get damaged during the last two seconds. It fixes the TTK and turns the tanking station into a proper healing station.


    Fragger :
    Fragger gets kind of stupid when he has heals and ammo, I’m not sure it’s such a wise idea to give the most HPs to the guy who also has among the best guns (I’ll specifically talk about the grenades later). So I understand he’s supposed to be slower but he really isn’t that much… His guns are great : the M16 is versatile, the BR-16 has crazy low recoil, it gets you headshots by stacks of three and the K21 is just crazy. Even though it’s a little hard to handle at range, it packs insane damage per magazine and the big bullet damage turns a single headshot into a death warrant. The COF turns big after 8 shots or so but its reset time is extremely quick. The last two weapons aren’t designed as CQC weapons but slow ROF can be negated by player skill. Fast ROFs in CQC are more frogiving to newbies but the issue disappears at higher level of play, when people land their hits. Even without taking skill into account, a CQC weakness is easily compensated by having almost twice the enemy’s HP (150 vs Proxy’s 90).
    Alright, so coupled with having among the best gunplay, here come the nades : The ability to cook OHK canceable nades is kind of broken. Yes, it does take a little skill to learn the pop-grenade timing for several ranges but it’s only a matter of a few hours to get consistent with it and you’re rewarded with a 15 second cooldown single hit kill with no warning. Coupled with the health station, they are the only broken things in the game right now. The fact that they often seem to make people inrezzable is even worse. They play a big part of the game turning into a chokepoint AOE oriented spam fest at a higher level. If nades never instagibbed in any of the CS iteration it’s for a reason, think about what the CS meta would turn into with instagib grenades on a 15 second cooldown.

    How to balance him :
    -Reduce his HPs to 130,
    -Reduce Grenade damage so it can’t instagib, make it 70 damage upclose to 35-40 damage in the outer ring of the AOE. Maybe increase the number of grenades carried at the same time as a counterpart.
    -Remove the ability to cancel grenade throws, being able to cook a grenade and then just switch weapons is kind of dumb, there’s no risk in having a grenade ready at all times.


    Vassili :

    First of all, the heartbeat sensor is pretty dumb and it is just bad design, I guess that’s the third broken thing about the game but we chose not to use it so it never felt too bad.
    This kind of crutch for situational awareness is terrible for competitive play, and I have no idea why you’d like to include any kind of ESP into your game. « But you can shoot the detector, L2P scrub », well no, the first ping is guaranteed and the ball is small enough to be thrown in weird places.

    The second thing about this detector is that it can be terrifying in pub play, couple this tool with an excellent player and he’ll get OHKs as soon as people get out of cover, especially on unaware beginners. This is the kind of frustrating thing that creates terrible new player experience, and lowers player retention. Please consider revamping this ability.

    When it comes to the killing potential, Vassili goes from decent at low level to insane when the player is amazing, I’m not unfortunately so I’ve only been on the receiving end of it. The OHK sniper discussion comes up every in every online shooter and it can be frustrating to be on the receiving end but honestly, Vassili really wouldn’t be viable at all if headshots didn’t kill in a single hit. And the movement is definitely fast enough to avoid getting hit.

    How to balance him : Revamp the heartbeat scanner into an object scanner (ables your team to see ammo and health packs, health stations etc. through walls).

(subtleChain) #2

[left]

[list]
[*] Classes (part two)

Skyhammer :

I feel like he’s in a pretty good place. The massive AOE is kind of cheesy though, thank god it takes forever to cooldown. Also the fact that it can be thrown higher or lower than you often makes it impossible to detect and you often get to cheese people out of the blue.

Suggestion : Allow people getting hit by an airstrike to be rezzed, it would lower the frustration factor a bit.

Sawbonez :

He’s in a good place but right now he is outclassed as a healer by Aura in every way except very niche things.

Proxy :
She seems in a pretty good place (I only got to play with the shotguns though) but right now she is outclassed as a lightweight killer by Aura. The mines can feel kind of cheesy but well… That’s like the whole concept of landmines.

Arty :
This guy just isn’t sexy right now and no one uses it. I didn’t get to unlock anything but the default gun (which seemed very niche and not viable if you didn’t land lots of headshots). I guess he’s supposed to do long range but Fragger already rules it and I can’t imagine how he’s supposed to defeat a K121 or BR16, especially with 40 less HP.

Suggestion : Increase his HPs to 120 (maybe tweak is guns a bit too but I don’t have enough experience with him to get specific)

[*] General gameplay issues and balance tweaks :

-Instagib AOEs that make you unrezzable:
That’s not fun in pubs and it’s borderline toxic in a competitive environment, please make it possible to rez naded and airstriked people.

-Revive invincibility
I understand the need for players not to get frustrated but it feels extremely unnatural and is kind of bad balance wise, it’s kind of hard to point the specific reason it doesn’t work but it makes for very unnatural, weird moments:
When the guy in front of me gets rezzed, it creates a 1v2 situation. The main thing about 1v2s is that every bullet counts : you’re dead if you don’t kill both enemies with a single mag which means you really can’t afford shooting someone that’s invincible. It creates some very awkward: « Should I shoot this enemy player or what » stuff. Invincibility feels gamey and kind of wrong, this game has a brilliant flow to it and invincible people running around kind of breaks it.
Getting killed right after respawning does feel frustrating but it’s a necessary evil, I don’t think it’s really that bad as when you get rezzed in the middle of a firefight it’s pretty obvious that you might just die again.

-Revive spam clusterfucks :
We’ve all been in this situation where there’s like 8 people in a tiny room (yay to the underground c4 gate corridor), unfortunately each side has 2 auras and there are healing stations everywhere, everyone keeps rezzing each other and there’s a lot of invincible people running nunning around, a lot of melee, and the big clusterfuck usually ensues for a ridiculous high amount of time. Now, I do believe that the insta rez speed coupled with high movement is one of the most interesting part of this game but chain rezzing does need to get toned down a bit. Here’s my suggestion : If you get downed again within four seconds after being rezzed, you die permanently.

-Long range is useless in a competitive setting :
There’s just no point fighting at long range because it’s safe to get downed anyway, the other team will never get to finish you before you get rezzed, this allows people to cover corners completely safely as long as there’s a medic around. Long range engagements are cool and skillfull in PUBs but as a team there’s zero risk and zero reward. To fix this I think the changes I suggested earlier might do the trick. If you implement no rez invincibility and the 4 second rez thing, it becomes viable to shoot someone, and then shoot them again when they get rezzed. Additionaly and optionaly you could implement insta-death when downed by long range weapons headshots (I’m thinkind Vassili’s and Arty’s guns). Right now insta-death comes from cheesy AOEs, encouraging long range skillfull headshots might be a better idea.

-Perks/Advancements :
I kind of a get the idea as a customization tool but there’s not much stats you can tweak in an fps game. The perks will always end up being useless or being too good.
For example as Aura right now there’s no point running anything but heal regen speed and heal range and it gives an unnatural advantage over someone who has +15% melee damage and doesn’t get hurt while falling.
Right now, some perks are way too good : reloading while sprinting, +33% reload speed, +30% heal station regen, +20% AOE radius, 35% ADAD speed while ADSing and maybe a couple other I don’t remember. In contrast the rest of them seem borderline useless.
The issue is : I don’t think perks really work well with FPS games, you’re trying to adapt a RPG mechanic into a shooter where everyone is supposed to be more or less on equal ground, a perk system is eitheir useless or gives you a statistical advantage that may turn out unfair.

My biggest fear is that there’s only going to be one or two viable loadout card that everyone will try to get, and that they’ll be burried behind a grind wall/pay to win fest. I’ll talk about it in detail in an other thread I’ll probably make about monetization options.

[*] Maps and Gamemodes :

I’m kind of tired so I won’t elaborate too much but the maps feel really good. It is true that some later objectives are borderline impossible to take when the defending team is decent. The thing is, it’s only an issue in objective mode. Stopwatch mode is a great idea because it allows you to create maps that are not completely balanced. Ranked objective mode is a huge issue though, frankly I feel like it shouldn’t exist : make objective a casual only mode and turn Stopwatch into the only ranked one.
[/list][/left]


(Vaxen) #3

A lot of the reservations you have regarding class balance are simply due to the fact that not all the classes are in the game at the moment. For example, you dislike Aura and the power of her healing station, but her hard-counters like Nader and Stoker weren’t in this beta phase.


(cosmopolitanSponge) #4

sigh… I have to agree with that… :sweat_smile:


(subtleChain) #5

Might be true, that’s what one of the others was saying. But I’m not convinced that fighting Regen AOEs with grenade launcher spamming is the most fun thing. I mean Fragger already does it.


(cosmopolitanSponge) #6

yes and no, there is a cooldown for the fragger and there even can only (without augments) have 2 nades


(subtleChain) #7

Gosh I’m eager to see Nader then… Nothing like a bunch of explosions to balance this whole thing out.


(sageCarrot) #8

going to respectfully disagree with a lot of the things you have said, but fragger’s grenades are really stupid

i’m genuinely scared when nader is released (as i’ve only been playing the past two weekends). nobody likes a spamfest

the only real significant change i’d like would be a slight ttk decrease on the m4 and significant decrease on sawbone’s smgs, they are pretty much the same ttk for vasilli’s and proxy’s secondary

how useful those medpacks are, sawbones is just horrible because those guns are really meh


(cosmopolitanSponge) #9

[quote=“sageCarrot;6698”]going to respectfully disagree with a lot of the things you have said, but fragger’s grenades are really stupid

i’m genuinely scared when nader is released (as i’ve only been playing the past two weekends). nobody likes a spamfest

the only real significant change i’d like would be a slight ttk decrease on the m4 and significant decrease on sawbone’s smgs, they are pretty much the same ttk for vasilli’s and proxy’s secondary

how useful those medpacks are, sawbones is just horrible because those guns are really meh[/quote]

wait why are you disagreeing?


(sageCarrot) #10

[quote=“cosmopolitanSponge;6699”][quote=“sageCarrot;6698”]going to respectfully disagree with a lot of the things you have said, but fragger’s grenades are really stupid

i’m genuinely scared when nader is released (as i’ve only been playing the past two weekends). nobody likes a spamfest

the only real significant change i’d like would be a slight ttk decrease on the m4 and significant decrease on sawbone’s smgs, they are pretty much the same ttk for vasilli’s and proxy’s secondary

how useful those medpacks are, sawbones is just horrible because those guns are really meh[/quote]

wait why are you disagreeing?[/quote]

sure, aura is a good duelist and if you get caught going around a corner with her and her health station, you’re probably fucked if you can’t disengage. that’s about all she’s good for, holding chokes. it’s not really that op, any of the “damage” classes like fragger can out ttk her with good aim even on the health station

arty is really useful on chapel and proper use of the artillery strike is insanely good, you just can’t be a noob about it and it’s really situational

i also don’t think the heartbeat sensor is an issue, chances are you’re throwing it in an area where people are going to be coming and the area is so small that it’s not likely you’re going to be tracing people through walls…again it’s also extremely easy to shoot out

for the most part i think the balance is completely fine along with the ttk. if it’s any longer, duels wont be as significant since 2v1s will be less winnable and if it’s any shorter, you’ll have the call of duty problem where the first person to spot the other wins.


(cosmopolitanSponge) #11

[quote=“sageCarrot;6700”][quote=“cosmopolitanSponge;6699”][quote=“sageCarrot;6698”]going to respectfully disagree with a lot of the things you have said, but fragger’s grenades are really stupid

i’m genuinely scared when nader is released (as i’ve only been playing the past two weekends). nobody likes a spamfest

the only real significant change i’d like would be a slight ttk decrease on the m4 and significant decrease on sawbone’s smgs, they are pretty much the same ttk for vasilli’s and proxy’s secondary

how useful those medpacks are, sawbones is just horrible because those guns are really meh[/quote]

wait why are you disagreeing?[/quote]

sure, aura is a good duelist and if you get caught going around a corner with her and her health station, you’re fucked if you can’t disengage. that’s about all she’s good for, holding chokes. it’s not really that op, any of the “damage” classes like fragger can out ttk her with good aim even on the health station

arty is really useful on chapel and proper use of the artillery strike is insanely good, you just can’t be a noob about it and it’s really situational

i also don’t think the heartbeat sensor is an issue, chances are you’re throwing it in an area where people are going to be coming and the area is so small that it’s not likely you’re going to be tracing people through walls…again it’s also extremely easy to shoot out

for the most part i think the balance is completely fine along with the ttk. if it’s any longer, duels wont be as significant since 2v1s will be less winnable and if it’s any shorter, you’ll have the call of duty problem where the first person to spot the other wins.[/quote]
I think that is the whole point? To not make it op? If it was op then people would be using aura more, making people more bored to the game, no? since she is the only one who is probably op but she is not, she can easily be killed by the sniper or whoever is good at shooting heads, that is the thing about teamwork, cooperation, and skill (mostly skill since people don’t know how to take care of an objective and revive people yet)


(sageCarrot) #12

[quote=“cosmopolitanSponge;6701”][quote=“sageCarrot;6700”][quote=“cosmopolitanSponge;6699”][quote=“sageCarrot;6698”]going to respectfully disagree with a lot of the things you have said, but fragger’s grenades are really stupid

i’m genuinely scared when nader is released (as i’ve only been playing the past two weekends). nobody likes a spamfest

the only real significant change i’d like would be a slight ttk decrease on the m4 and significant decrease on sawbone’s smgs, they are pretty much the same ttk for vasilli’s and proxy’s secondary

how useful those medpacks are, sawbones is just horrible because those guns are really meh[/quote]

wait why are you disagreeing?[/quote]

sure, aura is a good duelist and if you get caught going around a corner with her and her health station, you’re fucked if you can’t disengage. that’s about all she’s good for, holding chokes. it’s not really that op, any of the “damage” classes like fragger can out ttk her with good aim even on the health station

arty is really useful on chapel and proper use of the artillery strike is insanely good, you just can’t be a noob about it and it’s really situational

i also don’t think the heartbeat sensor is an issue, chances are you’re throwing it in an area where people are going to be coming and the area is so small that it’s not likely you’re going to be tracing people through walls…again it’s also extremely easy to shoot out

for the most part i think the balance is completely fine along with the ttk. if it’s any longer, duels wont be as significant since 2v1s will be less winnable and if it’s any shorter, you’ll have the call of duty problem where the first person to spot the other wins.[/quote]
I think that is the whole point? To not make it op? If it was op then people would be using aura more, making people more bored to the game, no? since she is the only one who is probably op but she is not, she can easily be killed by the sniper or whoever is good at shooting heads, that is the thing about teamwork, cooperation, and skill (mostly skill since people don’t know how to take care of an objective and revive people yet)
[/quote]
i’m saying i dont think she’s overpowered, original poster thinks otherwise and that’s who i was addressing


(cosmopolitanSponge) #13

ah, understandable, moving on!


(Reddeadcap) #14

Being on both the receiving and giving end I have to say fragger’s grenades are fine, and most other things involving him are about having competent medic and field ops to supply him. The only thing I have to say I dislike is how Aura’s health station is about shin high and spews endless health, Now I’m no super expert player or anything but when I can sit next to a station and survive alone, except for a few key moments where I needed an skyhammer to drop me off ammo next to a healing station surviving an onslaught of bullets from 3-5 enemies only to have to hide behind a street sign for 2 seconds to heal up, there is an issue. My only suggestion is to give Arty’s default rifle a look, have him have maybe one or 2 more shells and a faster call down speed on his artillery strike and give Aura’s healing station a slow healing pulse, less health and an optional red aoe field for enemy stations, along with an audio cue on the station firing previously mentioned pulses.


(Rhyno) #15

Agreed on the revive invincibility part. In no way should being invincible on revival be a thing. I have died countless times by a player who was revived with the minimum defib charge only because he was invincible.


(smartIsland) #16

Why not make health stations have less hp. 1 hit to kill? That way placement matters more. I enjoy explosion gib preventing revive, it is strategic and realistic and gives a nice buff to explosive/field ops classes. I think arty is fine, got his aug which is fantastic and matches his middle-long range play. I also don’t know how many people are using his artillery as multiple targeted shots to different locations instead of as a burst. Very good.

I agree shottys 2 good right now. Need slightly increased spread and slightly reduced range.


(smartIsland) #17

As for revive spam, killing bodies has always been an integral and strategic part of enemy territories. The need to balance ammo conservation with wasting time killing bodies leads for tons of strategy and exciting “kill the medics body!!!” gameplay


(smartIsland) #18

As for the snipers one shotting, the helmets in ET made it minimal 2 shots to kill. Idk how i feel about the current set up. Maybe they should remove the neck from the hit box or at least move it up a little


(subtleChain) #19

[left][quote=“smartIsland;6723”]As for revive spam, killing bodies has always been an integral and strategic part of enemy territories. The need to balance ammo conservation with wasting time killing bodies leads for tons of strategy and exciting “kill the medics body!!!” gameplay[/quote]

I agree with you and that’s what I said in my post, but couple that with revive invincibility, fast characters, insanely fast defibs and AOE heals and the situation does get slightly out of hand sometimes, and I’m quite sure it never got that spammy in ET. That’s why I suggested several things (but removing invincibility might be enough to do the trick).

There’s also something kind of awkward about downed players, if you’re lucky enough to see the guy’s head, finishing him is easy, on the other hand if its body happens to be facing the other way or if it suddenly decides rotates 180°, the TTK gets pretty damn big. I’m quite sure it didn’t feel that long in ET.

[quote=“sageCarrot;6700”]
i also don’t think the heartbeat sensor is an issue, chances are you’re throwing it in an area where people are going to be coming and the area is so small that it’s not likely you’re going to be tracing people through walls…again it’s also extremely easy to shoot out[/quote]

Wat? The area is pretty freaking huge and the whole point is to trace people through walls. Even setting aside the fact that it can be thrown in often unreachable, awkward spots, you can just throw it on your own side of the wall and the enemies can’t do shit about it except waiting for the effect to wear off.

I get what you’re saying but I think that’s kind of the point, the guy is a medic while proxy and vassili are slaying classes. I’ve seen players do very good with sawbonez and I think he’s viable. That might just be because they’re good and get lots of headshots though. I didn’t get to test all of his weapons but, with the default smg in mind, the guy could maybe use a slightly better DPS indeed.[/left]

You just can’t assume that people are going to be bad at the game and balance it around them, of course Fragger needs support but so does every killing class.
Even without medic, and without nades, fragger is by far the best shooter. I believe the LMG is the best gun in the game right now and the BR16 is probably the close second. Couple that with 150hp and 15seconds CD OHK nades and you’ve got yourself a big balance issue.