Gamers vs The Industry - Let's get stronger!

(Jess Alon) #21

So your two choices are

1.) Don’t give them a chance to rectify the mistake just be an ass and walk out.
or
2.) Give them a chance to fix the mistake. (But if you do this they won’t.)

You must eat at some crappy places.

(KAS--Will) #22

I’m actually trying to get into the industry… so, I guess I’m kinda neutral right now, but soon you’ll be against me. :slight_smile:

(Jess Alon) #23

Why should anyone want to get into an industry filled with screaming crying babies. The games we have now are way more advanced and innovative then they were years ago but we whine and nag about everything. The game developer is one of the most unappreciated people in the world. Add to that the publishers are usually the ones making the decisions that people don’t like. I appreciate every game I get to play. Even the bad ones. And brink is far from bad.

(raib) #24

The only thing particularly advanced in modern games is graphics.

Comparing games to movies industry-wise is dumb. In games, there are possible issues that are next to impossible to see coming before purchase if there are no demos or beta tests. Such as crippling performance issues. It’s much harder to make informed decisions about upcoming games than movies and that’s one of the main reasons why you see so much more complaining.

(riptide) #25

They are also less polished and more bug-ridden. Things that were standard are now touted as “features”. I’m just calling a spade a spade.

I have a few problems with Brink but I also have faith it will become what it should have been at launch which is a competitive team based shooter. That being said I still believe I made the right choice in purchasing Brink.

However that doesn’t change the fact that game quality has gone down in regards to releases. I remember the benefit of a console back in the day was having a playable game from day one. This was back in 1985 when I started and up until a few years ago it wasn’t unrealistic to buy a playable game out of the box. PC games have always had issues on release but not these huge patches that we’ve seen and most definitely not this rocky. It was usually just related to hardware.

(SphereCow) #26

SD made tons of blogs about all the other games they were playing, and enjoying (from other competitors)

(sereNADE) #27

heh, AAA indie model. interstellar marines and natural selection 2 are both similarly financed right? wonder how things will work out for developers who rely on this sort of plan to put food on the table. i have both titles pre-ordered and paid for btw. ns2 because of the ns reputation and dedicated following and im because the “believe” trailer was just so hilarious and janky (intentionally so or not, i lol’d) i couldn’t resist.

from personal experience i have come to realize that when you find yourself starting these sorts of threads it’s time to reevaluate your role as a customer to your own life. my wake up call was alpha protocol. i had spent so much time buying games last year i went overboard with my rage. some spillover leaked into a few of my forum posts at sega and i quickly saw how silly i looked and felt embarrassed for myself. idk, my advice is to cut your losses and think twice before buying another bethesda published game.

(triggerpappy) #28

I think part of the problem is that the walls between developers and gamers has gotten much wider.
Marketing depts, public relations and suits that have never played video games are making a lot of the decisions.

If I am a dev where am I going to get good feedback? The fanboys at the conventions, the trolls in the forums? The gaming media who write reviews on games after touching them for a day if that or the 140 chars that twitter alllows. I think not.

This is why I created an event where we take what gamers want, put it in a list and give it to the devs one on one in person at E3 and get their feedback. We will be doing this with SD and others in a few weeks but our meeting to make the list is this week if your community wants to join.

Details are here
http://bit.ly/kqWoHs

(iezza) #29

What next oh humble preacher, shall we eat our wives and stake their heads on the big Rump that is SD?! or GOuge out as many soft yellow antelopes and run around in circles for 20 minutes shouting “oh halusbisbeth we shall kil lyou bethesda, like these innocent annimalS”

No, just no, it will be fixed. trust SD

(sz80) #30

Your money is your vote as a capitalist consumer. Funny that the OP is apparently a religious nut or some ****, because apparently being religous is bad for one… and then you suggest “trust SD” which sounds like blind religious commitment to me. Up to you I guess, be a critical consumer, or think SD is your best buddy in the whole world and he’ll pay you back eventually. But for now Bethesda and SD just burned you for your trust by giving you a buggy game with poor balancing issues on top of it.

Sticking around and fixing the issue WITH them? How do you do that, give them money early which promotes buggy games to be released early? Or are you on the SD team working on a patch? Maybe they shouldn’t have made the mistake in the first place, and supposedly it’s due to us shelling out cash too early.

Games can still be developed without pre-order money, they were for a long time. But some games do better with preorder money, I understand. And even if it is shorter products made with shorter cycles, fine, charge how much it’s worth. That’s why microtransactions are popular, indie steam games <$20 bucks.

Movies vs games? Both are getting hit by piracy because of skeptical consumers and too many bad products. On top of that being a movie critic is way different than a game reviewer in terms of pay, education, and time constraints (watch a movie 3-4 times, play a game for… a hundred hours at least?) so you can trust a movie review better than a game review, so going into a theatre isn’t as hard of a bet.

(Agrocr0c) #31

Sz80 seems to be able to see the wood despite all the trees.

(Kazang) #32

Developing a cross platform multiplayer shooter with 6 figure or greater development costs is just little bit more complicated than cooking a steak.

Your “example” a joke.

(Nefarious) #33

There is nothing we as consumers can do.

Its like going to go see a movie. You see the trailers and know the actors in it. And it looks awesome. Then when you go to see it and it sucks.

Same with this. Saw the vids and thought that it can only get better. Well it didint and we bought into the hype.

(Dire Wolf) #34

I agree with your thoughts on this game & on the video game market, Agro. I don’t care if some of these people are gonna split hairs on the WORDING of your argument, I think most of us understood. I got burned on this one too. Bad!

I basically became a spokesperson for Brink (for about a year now) and told everyone, I played online with, to check out some of the Brink videos (including the dev ones), and to buy it whenever its finally released! Now, all my friends (Hell, everyone I KNOW, across platforms) that bought it, is dissappointed if not flat out pissed off with it. They don’t even want to play it It’s too much of a hassle, with the technical and lag issues. I’ve played it quite a bit, with only some online play (which was more fun, WHEN it worked correctly), hoping it would become more fun as I got used to it. Nope, it just pisses me off more and more, seeing exactly how glitchy it is and how little content or story there actually is. Plus, how disappointing it is to see how different it is from what they showed us is a major let down. Sure, it still has some of the potential of being something big, but you have to rate what you have in front of you, not what COULD be there.

I definitely didn’t get anything close to $60 worth! And to many of us, that’s a LOT of money to just throw away! I can’t get new games very often. Usually, I have to save a while to get a new one. I don’t just ‘jump’ into buying games because of the cover art or just a cool cinematic video online. However, theres only so much “research” you can do (BEFORE a game comes out) without getting to play a demo first, of content from the actual final product (Brink did not) and without multiple competent reviews published PRIOR to the game’s release being available. (I read that Brink had an embargo on the press members that actually got to play an early version until AFTER the game came out…hmmm). If they were actually proud of their ‘finished product’ they would have offered a demo and allowed early reviews. ANY level of beta testing would have told them this game isn’t finished. I find it VERY hard to believe Splash Damage or Bethesda or whomever honestly thought this game was what they promised us.

So, what about these ‘upcoming’ updates? Or DLC? If they’re not released in the next week or so AND don’t fix ALL the major issues (including a lobby) and add at LEAST the same amount of levels (or more) than they released it with, they’re going to be completely irrelevant to us. Several people I know have already traded theirs in.

In closing, I agree with your idea too Agro. I’m going to do my best not to pre-order anything (I haven’t played) anymore, and continue try my best not buy ANYTHING substandard. It’s the main voice we have, we cannot allow this to go on unhindered.

PS-Also, I’m sorry if this isn’t as polite as a great deal of posts I’ve read to Splash Damage, so it might be blocked or removed. But, I feel like you took my money and gave me a piece of unfinished junk, instead of what you said it was! And are now telling me that you’ll ‘fix’ it when you get around to it. I took you at your word. You knowingly released a game to us that far too many bugs and far less artistic graphics and far too little content, story, & features than what you showed us (as actual gameplay) and told us about. Go back and watch the vids @ http://www.brinkthegame.com/media/videos/?id=78
and then pop the game in and compare for yourselves.

(Brink Lags) #35

[QUOTE=zenstar;317758]You know what is a good analogy for the games industry?
The movie industry.
Grabbing a movie ticket, a popcorn and a drink costs about the same as a new game (games are slightly more but last a lot longer). Both industries try to hype their product before release with advertising and previews. Both industries have a similar setup with a publisher who releases things made by smaller divisions / companies.

Somehow people aren’t crying for blood about a bad movie. Somehow people are able to judge a movie by the information available before they see it and then decide whether to see it on opening night or to pick it up later when the dvd is in the cheap bin. Why can’t they do that for games?

I think your “crusade” is misguided and you’re arguing from an emotional point (which is bad) because you’re disappointed.
Also: trying to denegrate people who disagree with you (like calling them “fanboys”) without actually countering any of their points is indicative that your argument does not hold water.

Consumers need to take some responsibility for their actions too. If you value your money then make informed decisions with it.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, but when they turn the movie projector on and it doesn’t work you get a refund at the movies.

(Brink Lags) #36

Honestly, if they don’t even mention some sort of lobby for consoles, I’m trading the game in. THe only way I can get my friends to buy back their copies is with lag free and lobby support. Something I shouldn’t have to ask for to begin with from an online FPS game in the year 2011.

(wolfnemesis75) #37

Brink is fun. Definitely worth the money I paid. I am looking forward to Free DLC. Is the game perfect: No. Is it fun more times than not, yes. Was it what I expected. Yes. Do I think it is the greatest game ever created, nope. Still a heck of a fun time.

(Jess Alon) #38

Game was worth every penny and I’m not disappointed. I’ve had way worse games. Like Fable 3 for instance. Biggest letdown ever. Brink. Performance issues but I’m satisfied.

(Orthias) #39

@Agrocroc: if you were wondering why gamers do behave like they don when buying games, i think you got your answer. This whole thread is your answer.
People’s actions are governed by their beliefs, attitudes and convictions.
Those in turn are affected by both rational thought and subjective feelings, and you have a few golden samples of the exact feelings that are at the core of the problem.

Sorry I didn’t get involved earlier, was too busy playing the work of art that is The Witcher 2 over the weekend to be bothered to check these forms. Will try to catch up and be as brief as i can.

@zenstar
i’d really like to respond, just to satisfy my own subjective sense of justice, as the fighter against fallacies and fallacious arguments that i consider myself to be. Also some of the stuff here applies to many other posters in this thread.

[QUOTE=zenstar;317620]You are employing an argumentative fallacy known as “the straw man argument”. If you don’t understand why this form of argument is the wrong way to argue then I suggest doing some research on it.
[/QUOTE]
First problem is you do not argue your point at all, you only state it. Simply accusing somebody of doing a “straw man” without demonstrating your accusation to be valid, or holding it to be self-evident, is, i’m sorry to inform you, an “ad hominem”, one that you make yourself guilty of.

BTW: it’s called “ad hominem” not “ad hominum” (please look it up, Latin is dead, we should show some respect for the departed) :rolleyes:

Second, you are accusing the OP of doing an “ad hominem” by calling everyone that puts forward valid points “fanboys”.
The irony is that this actually constitutes a “straw man” on your part, because you are presenting a misrepresentation of the opponent’s position, which is the most common type of straw man there is, and you’re doing it with a “non sequitur”, to boot.

The misinterpretations is this: the OP is actually quoting me saying that people who chose to delude themselves into liking something despite evidence to the contrary are fanboys.
It does NOT follow from that , however, that people who put forth valid points are deluded and consequently, fanboys (this is the non sequitur)[/B].
Quite the contrary, one would expect people who put forth valid points to be quite realistic and objective, and the OP does NOT state anything to contradict that.
There you go: straw man trough non sequitur.

Now comes the best part, this is where you use a deductive fallacy to try and say games deserve the same treatment on the consumer’s part as movies, because they share some common characteristics:

[QUOTE=zenstar;317758]You know what is a good analogy for the games industry?
The movie industry.
Grabbing a movie ticket, a popcorn and a drink costs about the same as a new game <snip…>. Both industries try to hype their product before release with advertising and previews. Both industries have a similar setup with a publisher who releases things made by smaller divisions / companies.

Somehow people aren’t crying for blood about a bad movie. <snip>Why can’t they do that for games?
[/QUOTE]

They WOULD cry blood for movies if:

[ul]
[li]they would go to a film only to be told the last 15 minutes have no sound and they should wait around a week until it’s fixed
[/li][li]they find out that the movie’s frame-rate is bad and sometimes the movie stops playing completely and they have to re-start it, because the movie would not run on the movie theater’s hardware, contrary to what was advertised.
[/li][li]they go to see Angelina Jolie or Jack Nicholson, only to see their faces blurry during the whole film because of “low settings” that have to be kept that way or the movie won’t run at all (again, despite having state-of-the-art hardware);
[/li][li]on top of it all, they would have paid for said film before production is finished.
[/li][/ul]
Obviously if, by an absurd possibility, any of the above happened, people would demand and receive their money back. Nevermind what they’d think about the film itself, which could be Oscar material for all they care, they never got to see it.

[B]For the last time, please: quit “strawmaning” that we hve a problem with the games’s design or gameplay, quit truing to depict us as mis-informed, lazy, immature complainers; if the game would look and run on the recommended specs the same way it did in all those developer videos and E3 and PAX shows we would be out there playing the game we fell in love with and pre-ordered, instead of wasting time on the forums here.

Game design is NOT our complain here, but he inability to play the game as it was designed! [/B](and more specifically, the fact that we the gamers condone this situation to and have a fault in it’s continued existence).

Now this is just not worth my time. Where do you get this from? Being disappointed does NOT equal being irrational or emotive.
Emotional arguments involve using fallacies and a lack of arguments.
I’m sorry but from where i’m standing, you’re guilty of exactly the same thing you are accusing the OP, while he maintained a level of calm and composure in his discourse that i don’t think i could match, to my disgrace.

TLDR: Sorry for the long post, but i frankly don’t care if anybody reads this, i just had to set things straight and say my peace.

(Dire Wolf) #40

Bravo, Orthias! Perfect! That is the core or ‘heart’ of the problem. I want to play the game they sold me and my friends on last year, and I’m still hanging onto a (daily fraying) thread that they’ll pull it off. You beautifully and articulately responded to the people missing the point. I couldn’t agree with you more, and I’m incapable of putting it better!