From what I played at QCon.

(jazevec) #21

Voxie:

I didn’t call this implementation counterintuitive and short-sighted. I said that “intuitive” is often an excuse for short-sighted decisions. First thing that comes into your mind is not always the best or most accurate. It is intuitive that the Sun goes in circles around the Earth. It is intuitive that the Earth is flat.

I don’t mind as long as context-sensitive SMART button is not the only way to do things. Others have made very good arguments against it (sometimes it makes you perform unwanted action). Improving it is not my concern, because I hope the traditional way of playing will still be possible*, and that is foolproof. To give you an idea why SMART button as the only solution is complicated: imagine there’s a teammate in front of your objective. You run towards it, but the teammate is in your crosshairs obstructing it. Should SMART button default to pushing teammate away (according to some reports this is what it does when nothing else seems possible), buffing him (many classes can do that) or equipping the objective-related tool ? Even better - SMART button makes you sprint if there’s nothing in sight. What if you accidentaly sprint into teammate or objective ? You accidentaly equip a medpack/explosive charge ? Maybe there’s already one charge planted and it’s more valuable to guard it from being disarmed ?

I have an answer you might not like. SMART button may be ok for console players. For people who don’t want to learn or understand. For people who want more, including console players, I suggest plugging in a keyboard (!). Certainly PS3, and I think also Xbox can use a keyboard. Keyboards are extremely widespread and thus very inexpensive.

I would think of splitting SMART button into two keys: one for movement (sprint, climbing, sliding), one for interaction (teammates, switches, turrets, objectives). But if you have to work with a controller which has six buttons, I don’t know what to say.

  • I hope that the old-school way of playing is possible, but what worries me is that there’s no hard evidence supporting that. The only thing passing for evidence is the declaration that all SMART movement will be possible using crouch, jump, spring buttons. But so far PC is very neglected when it comes to presentations, and even if we assume Splash Damage’s goodwill (which I don’t take for granted anymore) it is possible that they just overlook something due to lack of testing. Or their corporate overlords decide the feature won’t bring enough money. There has been one such accident so far - it turned out there’s only the “console” way to use handgrenades, and it’s already too late to change that. We don’t know for sure that mouse+keyboard controls are implemented let alone satisfactory. We have to trust them. Splash Damage is already 70 people, which (If memory serves) is about 7 times bigger than in the days of Quake 3 Fortress mod. Considering that their only commercial game is mildly succesful ET:QW, I have reasons to be cautious. They still have to prove themselves. Wolfenstein:Enemy Territory was built upon a very solid foundation: id Software’s RTCW. Yet you can see SD pat themselves on their backs for a job well done. Know what ? I’ve overhead a couple of conversations where someone calls W:ET a crappy game and then adds “at least it’s free”. That was on W:ET servers.
(light_sh4v0r) #22

As I understand it there will be 2 ‘smart’ buttons as you call them. 1 is for the movement as you say, the other is the ‘use’ key which interacts with whatever you’re aiming with. That’ll most certainly include objectives, don’t know about other tools like reviving, health/ammo etc.

(Senethro) #23

Imagine a merged SMART/Use/Fire button! Then you could play on those old mac mice.

(digibob) #24

[QUOTE=jazevec;237335]Voxie:

I don’t mind as long as context-sensitive SMART button is not the only way to do things. Others have made very good arguments against it (sometimes it makes you perform unwanted action). Improving it is not my concern, because I hope the traditional way of playing will still be possible*, and that is foolproof. To give you an idea why SMART button as the only solution is complicated: imagine there’s a teammate in front of your objective. You run towards it, but the teammate is in your crosshairs obstructing it. Should SMART button default to pushing teammate away (according to some reports this is what it does when nothing else seems possible), buffing him (many classes can do that) or equipping the objective-related tool ? Even better - SMART button makes you sprint if there’s nothing in sight. What if you accidentaly sprint into teammate or objective ? You accidentaly equip a medpack/explosive charge ? Maybe there’s already one charge planted and it’s more valuable to guard it from being disarmed ?

[/QUOTE]

SMART only handles movement, it does not perform actions.

(Voxie) #25

Correct. Given how you’ve read my posts, perhaps I should have clarified what in Brink I’m stressing to be intuitive. I was using it in the strict sense of how you interface with the game world. As any UI designer will tell you, an intuitive interface enabling instant readability truly is alpha and omega. I certainly don’t want everything be intuitive (everything that weakens gameplay for the sake of realism is a big no for me–I’m looking at you, stamina bar).

I’m calling the use button (which, as numerous others have stated, is separate from the SMART button – if it wasn’t I would be raging as much as anyone here, so I can see your skepticism from that misconception) intuitive because it works just like how you’d guess it would. This is in stark contrast from for example the bomb planting in ET, which arguably is an overcomplicated process for something that’s so critical to your team’s success.

The true debate, of course, lies in whether or not they’ve streamlined the controls at the expense of game depth and certainty of always doing the right action. This debate is somewhat sabotaged by the partly ungrounded parallels to the horror example that is Wolfenstein (2009) and misconceptions such as the use button doing more than it does, the “auto-pilot” guiding you from dozens of meters away, the tool-switching being as slow as the one in Quake Wars, that medpacks and syringes work just like in ET, et cetera.

I’m all for the discussion of all this – you can never get enough constructive criticism in this industry. I also completely agree with you about the point you’re making about SD and their track record; my faith, if you can call it that, in Brink’s success is based mostly on its premise, previews and the new key people they’ve hired, but also on their roots as a hardcore PC developer.

I’ve literally played PC games since I was an infant; I never play multi-platform games on console, in fact, the closest I come to playing console games is casual Xbox 360 gaming when visiting my mother’s house. :stuck_out_tongue: I can barely stand using gamepads for the games which interests me the most. :slight_smile:

(Apples) #26

Huh voxie, I understand you are a reasonable person, and actually the lighter justice league member over here :smiley: (jk) but if we arent allowed to compare brink with any previous experience, why the hell are we here? as almost noone of us played the game, and the only guy who dare to post a comment about qcon got flamed cuz you know… xbox aint pc…

Of course we compare, and of course (to me) what I compare is maybe uncomparable, but you have to deal with the data you have, and so far the only things I’ve seen is that even if the artistic part of brink and the story get me hard… the gameplay so far has many flaws.

I’m sure SD guyz read all this and take this into account, i’m not even blaming them as I know that the publisher will have the last word anyway, but sometime (for the billion time I’ll say it again), why break a thing that is working? keep the old stuff so the hardcore crew is motivated, and enable some kind of “autopilot” for the newbiez that they’ll remove sooner or later.

To me its just a matter of choices, and with this game i’m feeling excited but also so disapointed (steam is the worst, but well, i’m an irrational ass about that anyway).

Well, I just hope that the game will sell and will improve patch after patch :wink:

Peace

(Nail) #27

off topic rant

“Arguably the best drivers in the world are F1 drivers… I don’t see them using a clutch.”

F1 cars have a clutch, they use semi-automatic gearboxes with up to 7 forward gears usually with paddle shifters and electronic control of the clutch for shifting, off the line the driver uses the clutch to engage geartrain, just like any other road racer

(Senethro) #28

Because there are better alternatives

keep the old stuff so the hardcore crew is motivated, and enable some kind of “autopilot” for the newbiez that they’ll remove sooner or later.

Or they could try to make a single system good enough for everyone to use forever.

To me its just a matter of choices,

Choices are expensive in time and money. You should give a choice on trivial subjective things, but otherwise designers should try to come up with a comprehensive, near-perfect solution to cover everything. Choice is inefficient and admitting you couldn’t think of a best way to design something.

and with this game i’m feeling excited but also so disapointed (steam is the worst, but well, i’m an irrational ass about that anyway).

Well, I just hope that the game will sell and will improve patch after patch :wink:

(Jamieson) #29

So Feanor who is in my clan TAW, and eyesore the two people who have both played the game at Quakecon both have the same feelings about the control system etc.

Pretty much just confirmed my fears about the game.

(Voxie) #30

:smiley:

… Wait, if I’m a member, does that mean I have to dress up in a spandex suit while posting here in the future? :eek:

Of course you are and of course you should! My prime points with my last post was to try and “debunk” some of the misconceptions and major woes of this whole debacle (particularly about some thinking that many of its aspects work like they do in Wolf/QW), and to reiterate that constructive criticism is awesome (and that unconstructive criticism certainly isn’t!). Just because I don’t agree with everything the “conservative” fanbase thinks, doesn’t mean I want to suppress your viewpoints in any way. :slight_smile:

(DarkangelUK) #31

[QUOTE=Jamieson;237373]So Feanor who is in my clan TAW, and eyesore the two people who have both played the game at Quakecon both have the same feelings about the control system etc.

Pretty much just confirmed my fears about the game.[/QUOTE]

It’s nice that you let someone make your mind up for you, and I also like how they have feelings about m+kb control system based on their experience with a controller… but wouldn’t you rather confirm your fears yourself? I almost think you want to dislike this game, and not have something good to play…

(Apples) #32

[QUOTE=Senethro;237371]Because there are better alternatives[/QUOTE] Its your opinion here :wink: not mine

[QUOTE=Senethro;237371]Or they could try to make a single system good enough for everyone to use forever.[/QUOTE] Well to me the already existent system is good for everyone to use, how does make me different then?

I’m aware of that, but from what I saw this system is far from near-perfect… and the only datas i have to judge about that is the stuff I saw on videos + the concern 2 guyz have posted which weirdly concurs…

As usual, its an opinion vs another and i can agree with that, but we just wont come to an agreement here!

Peace

(Jamieson) #33

Believe me I like to make my own mind up but I have known Feanor for a long time now and we are good friends. I trust his judegement, he saw Brink at Quakecon 2009 and then played it at Quakecon 2010 and will be going to PAX 2010. My opinion of the game is based on my experience of previous games with similar systems and his judement. Lets not forget he has played the game so unless you have also played the game i’m going to find his assesment and eyesores more valid than yours of “i have not played the game but im sure its all going to be fine and dandy”.

I do dislike the game, infact I hate everything it stands for, it disgusts me that a developer like SD is going to forget about PC gamers, the people who supported them and now they are going to turn to the consoles. Because that is what Brink is, everything is simplified so the game works on a gamepad, Game decisions are made with the consoles getting priority and its just really sad, every other developer is doing it but I thought SD would be different.

(H0RSE) #34

I do dislike the game, infact I hate everything it stands for, it disgusts me that a developer like SD is going to forget about PC gamers, the people who supported them and now they are going to turn to the consoles. Because that is what Brink is, everything is simplified so the game works on a gamepad, Game decisions are made with the consoles getting priority and its just really sad.

let’s not forget who is ultimately calling the shots here - Bethesda.

On a side note, yes. If a game controls have been streamlined to work on a console, then it can’t possibly have any depth or strategy involved…did you think of that one all by yourself? Something that comes to mind a lot while I read many of these posts is the old phrase, “work smarter not harder.” But a lot of you seem to want the exact opposite.

"One button to do so many different things?! Unacceptable! No, make it so I need to hit 80 different buttons to perform an action, this way it isn’t “simplified” and “noobish.”

(mortis) #35

I am reserving judgment on the PC version until I have played the PC version. I couldn’t give a crap about consoles and console controller limitations. My decision to purchase will be solely based on the quality of the game as it runs on my preferred platform, the PC. I don’t think that there is any point hashing out the advantages of PCs versus Consoles; they are different and both appeal to people in different ways. Arguing about it is useless.

The console market is very attractive to publishers because it’s much easier to develop for a known hardware platform instead of the wacky mismatched world of PC hardware and OSes. I happen to use a computer for gaming because I also use it for work, email, social networking, programming, etc. Splash Damage is showing a huge commitment to PCs by co-developing a PC version and by delivering dedicated servers for the PC environment. I am satisfied with that for now.

As for the Qcon Console Emulation…well that’s just a crude demonstration of the console version and isn’t very relevant to my future decision to buy. It isn’t a PC Retail Version Preview…the game is still a WIP, and I’m just going to have wait to play the PC version in the future demo/beta/whatever. In the meantime, I’m watching the developments, but still reserving judgment for the final product, which I’m relatively certain will have plenty of bells and whistles for the PC platform…

(DarkangelUK) #36

Maybe Brink should be made compatible with the Steel Battalion controller, cos we all know more buttons = more pro!

(f34n0r) #37

but to be fair here you must admit that actions auto-engage the SMART system…

(digibob) #38

Yes, but that doesn’t really affect what he was saying.

(Senethro) #39

[QUOTE=Jamieson;237384]
I do dislike the game, infact I hate everything it stands for, it disgusts me that a developer like SD is going to forget about PC gamers, the people who supported them and now they are going to turn to the consoles. Because that is what Brink is, everything is simplified so the game works on a gamepad, Game decisions are made with the consoles getting priority and its just really sad, every other developer is doing it but I thought SD would be different.[/QUOTE]

Quotin’ dis

(DarkangelUK) #40

This is the best part

it disgusts me that a developer like SD is going to forget about PC gamers

Yeah, forget about PC gamers by releasing their game on PC. A lot of devs are console only, but SD are DISGUSTING for releasing their game simultaneously on all 3 platforms instead of sticking to PC, screwing Bethesda sideways and missing out on a lucrative market… FILTHY SLUTS!