Friendly Fire-ON and/or 5vs5 Option in PUBLIC*casual* - Request

(anicca444) #1

Oh hey @RazielWarmonic , @stayfreshshoe , @everyone… anicca444 here

so I love DB but one thing has never made sense to me;

DB is supposedly balanced for 5vs5+FF-on, yet there is no 5vs5 option nor any friendly-fire “on” option in public games… of any sort…

I’m not the best player, I’m alright sometimes; but it seems an obvious omission to me and for way too long I have seen an endless stream of top, above-average and average players alike, pleading for the option within publiccasual.

Why?:
[list]
[] It promotes a more seamless transition into ranked/competitive play. -“Ranked” is available at level 7, yet there is nothing close to competitive style game-play in the public servers, the closest (still vastly different) is not unlocked until level 10/20
[] Player-base improvement concerning team communication and situational awareness / positioning.
[*] Many if not most veteran / competitive players clearly want it, and with it only being an option, nothing changes for those who do not want to play on FF-on servers.
[/list]

Suggestions:

Either

  • 5vs5 FF-on public servers, at least some of the min-10 / 20 servers. *(a check-box and/or warning could indicate to “quick-join” players about FF-on)
  • 6vs6 FF-on public servers, at least some of the min-10 / 20 servers. *(a check-box and/or warning could indicate to “quick-join” players about FF-on)
  • CMM - since CMM uses a hidden rating per player, an average game player rating could automatically enable FF-on once a threshold is achieved -
  • EITHER that or optional tick-box for FF-on (restricted to a certain matchmaking ranking value / player level to prevent new accounts griefing due to F2P nature of the game).

Potential Issues:

Griefing - This can be mitigated via

  • Auto-Reduced Number Kick Vote: / Penalty on X amount of friendly-fire kills
    [though I do not feel the current XP penalty is an efficient way since “killing-to-revive” and genuine mistakes can be punished unfairly all too easily]
  • Limiting Friendly-Fire-ON to current servers that are minimum level 10/20
  • Limiting Friendly-Fire-ON to CMM servers which are above a certain matchmaking-rating average

Disincentivizing Ranked/PUG Play - Though I feel ranked and PUGs both play to a different audience and purpose;

  1. The upcoming changes to ranked should provide extra incentive anyway.
  2. PUGs are a great way for people to get into a more competitive framework for Dirty Bomb… but they are often missed by a large amount of the player-base, and not convenient to join ( limited number, sporadically arranged and often populated with very skilled players; whilst they are very accommodating and love to help the community’ competitive scene, the option of FF-on within public servers would IMO provide a spring board for more people to get interested in PUG / competitive play )

I have asked about this many times through various channels and in the most recent community stream was told that the only likely avenue for getting this heard was to get as many replies on a topic as possible. This is something I feel DB needs, especially when ranked is either having problems (for those in the higher ranks especially) or ranked is down between seasons for extended periods.

Thank you for reading this not-so-brief preliminary suggestion. Appreciate all replies, shares and will edit the thread as time goes on.

x <3 Much love, peace & blessings <3 x

anicca444

TL:DR - there should be some sort of option besides private matches for FF-on and/or 5vs5 play.

(anicca444) #2

- Reserved Post -

This post is to compile a list of other forum threads / reddit posts Etc. which are requesting similar features (suggestions towards ranked, public 5vs5 and public friendly-fire) SD/Nexon feedback:

  • Forum Thread from @Daga containing his video and discussion on public-5vs5/ff-on and ranked
  • Forum Thread from @Kelben regarding leaving ranked enabled between seasons / having the consistent option to play something closer to ranked
(MisterBadmin) #3

Obligatory link to my thoughts on handling FF in CMM and transitioning to Ranked.

Otherwise, yeah. Having an OPTION to play with Friendly Fire in pubs would be nice. I probably wouldn’t play with it, but to each their own.

(LifeupOmega) #4

Would help a ton for when you want to just join a game with no waiting, and as you said above, it’d help ease the playerbase into ranked and teach them things such as kill-revives and other neat tricks like not pressing f next to your medic as Nader.

(anicca444) #5

[quote=“MisterBadmin;c-218789”]Obligatory link to my thoughts on handling FF in CMM and transitioning to Ranked.

Otherwise, yeah. Having an OPTION to play with Friendly Fire in pubs would be nice. I probably wouldn’t play with it, but to each their own.[/quote]

I like your suggestions too in that post… though as you rightly say, segregating an already small player-base may be an issue.

Hopefully with CMM / ranked s2 /
map over the coming months (events / mercs?) the player-base will continue its’ uptick; and then those kinds of segregation to ease people into various aspects of competitive play would be more palatable.

(rationalCharm) #6

I agree with this fully. It would add a more competitive aspect to the game, as well as providing for a place where new and or casual people can be filtered out, in turn stimulating balance among more serious players. Great Idea.

(e1ek) #7

I would love to see that; but would limit it to the minlvl20 servers at first…
nice anicca!
e1ek

(Nail) #8

always thought FF on should be default, otherwise every poop whistle just uses team mates as meat shields

(n-x) #9

Good luck with this, but I dont see much of a chance for a response. @dox has been asking for this since ages @Daga made a video about it. I made a thread asking about it linking @RazielWarmonic and @stayfreshshoe and I linked them again in Dagas video. No one ever got a response.

Edit: I take it back. Shoe just responded in Dagas video thread.

(anicca444) #10

[quote=“Kelben;c-218844”]Good luck with this, but I dont see much of a chance for a response. @dox has been asking for this since ages @Daga made a video about it. I made a thread asking about it linking @RazielWarmonic and @stayfreshshoe and I linked them again in Dagas video. No one ever got a response.

Edit: I take it back. Shoe just responded in Dagas video thread.[/quote]

thanks, just seen it and replied. :slight_smile: … I know people have been trying to see this realized for quite some time. We love the game and want the best for it, why can’t they see that :smiley: <3 haha I have hope <3 x love SD and Nexon, and DB… don’t get me wrong! I’m just puzzled by this omission, have been for a long time.

(arkti) #11

Would be good if they add 5v5 ff on About the other options such 6v6 FF on, some players want FF on on casual. Ranked is only mode with that and it makes that mode special. Not everyone want to play rankeds just to have FF enabled.

I would also add requierment for new players - they need to play about 20 of these and 50 of casual to unlock ranked. Ingame one merc rule should solve the cancer problem of rankeds, so there will not be multiple phantoms griefing ur match and causing rage and salt. Lvl 7 req is not rly a req because it depends on XP gain from mission, some ppl need to do it long time because they are bad and new and some do it pretty quick (read smurfs and cheaters) and if everyone will need to play X amount of matches it will be fair for everyone because the “better” players can’t speed up unlocking it by stomping newbies.

Some ppl will ask, wtf 50 casuals and 20 5v5 FF on (casual). are you insane? it will take even longer then getting 7 LVL. My respond is yes, it is fair because lvl 7 players are rly fresh players that dont really know what to do. By playing 50 casuals and 20 FF on will help them understand game and how does ranked work and they will have more mercs unlocked and they will know how use their abilities well/not bad.

PS lets call 5v5 FF on matches - ranked simulation.

(anicca444) #12

[left][quote=“deliciousOverload;c-218848”]
I would also add requierment for new players - they need to play about 20 of these and 50 of casual to unlock ranked…

Lvl 7 req is not rly a req because it depends on XP gain from mission…[/quote]

Good suggestion… I’m not sure on the details/numbers of that but it does seem awfully odd that a common reason people cite for the lack of FF-on in public is people being unprepared, but people rarely suggest a change to the entry requirements for ranked… moreover, if the requirement for ranked is so low, there seems to be no logical argument against having FF-on enabled in some min 10 servers, let alone min 20.

Having just started playing another game which has casual/competitive division… it has a requirement of a certain level of character mastery across characters before allowing ranked queueing. This is another good approach and I applaud that decision despite it locking people out of ranked for quite some time… of course they have a “cmm-like” feature for casual play already and perhaps a bigger player-base… so these are factors that probably come into it too.

I’m all for one/two merc rule for ranked… “one” would work well as 2 default mercs+3 on rotation is 5 anyway and other games that have you choosing a single character before hand completely lock you from choosing the same character as someone else, so an in-game merc limit is a trivial thing…

but I’d be happy with a “two” rule if SD decided “one” was too strict. If it were a single merc limit, there’d have to be code written for requesting merc changes (or something, as when someone has already selected a merc, it would have to be freed up as you both needed to change)[/left]

(Dim) #13

That’s an awesome idea, I fully agree with the thread.

(battyMonkey) #14

Can be really nice, is a good suggestion, hope somethink in dirty will change.
That think about friendly fire is nice but not at min 10 , in my point of view, if maybe they make more limited level server like min 20-30-50 can be funny.

I have 1 question: if i can use weapon kit 4 choose weapon when i craft, why i can’t buy it on store too.that a stupid think, there just crafting kit…
Anyway good suggestion anicca

Have a nice day guys

Died_mos

(superLobster) #15

[left]Hello, all. I’ve been summoned to voice my opinion. Here is a brief rundown of who I am and how I play to help ascertain if my opinion is important to you or not.

Dirty Bomb Username: pacman77
Account Created: September 3rd, 2016
Hours Played: 240+
Level: 27
Rank: Unranked (tried several times unsuccessfully to enter ranked)
Overral Accuracy: 31.5%
Preferred Game Mode: Execution (80% of the time)

I am a casual DB player with what I’d consider slightly above average skill.[/left]

[center]****************************************
How pacman77 feels about 5v5 / FF-On
****************************************[/center]

[left]First of all, 5v5 should definitely be an option of gameplay. I believe this 100% without question. Smaller teams, more intricate and delicate style of play, and essentially running “competitive play simulation” in public servers seems like an absolute no-brainer to me.

Friendly Fire: Having the option for friendly-fire to be enabled only makes the most sense as a relatively easy way to help bring change, particularly to mid/ higher-level competitive play in Dirty Bomb. What DB lacks in multiple game modes or slower Merc releases (cough Turtle) could, in my opinion, be somewhat easily remedied by allowing public matches to enable Friendly-Fire if they so wish. DB, as we’re told, has been developed with 5v5 matches in mind. It does make me wonder how vastly different various elements of gameplay would be with FF-on, and also raises a couple of unique questions.

  • Griefing: I do agree with the suggested solutions to help aid in this problem. I would believe a minimum level of 20 seems most appropriate to me for FF-on games. A level 10 will have an understanding of the game, mercs, strategy, and basic map-awareness, but will not understand the intricacies of team composition, positioning, use of special abilities, and team cohesion necessary for enjoyable FF-on gameplay, IMO. Also, level 10 is not nearly as much a far cry for a cheater/ hacker to achieve within a short time of “XX - 2 KDR” games. I mention this because there will, just as every other game with FF-on, be players dedicated to ruining the fun for their teams or a specific person.
  • Special Abilities: I have thoughts of what would seem fair as far as special abilities are concerned in an FF-on scenario. I would think that the mercs most severely hammered or “nerfed”, in a sense, would be Area of Denial mercs. Nader comes to mind immediately as there are often collision issues with the grenades and even the augment for larger blast radius somewhat seems like a negative thing to have, potentially. Stoker, clearly, comes to mind. His molotov being able to be passed through by teammates is one of the MAIN reasons this type of AOD is effective, IMO. Stopping enemies from engaging a particular route or doorway while waiting for help to arrive will consequentially also create the same scenario for your own team without prejudice (much in the same sense as Red Eye’s smoke grenade does naturally). Stoker’s molotov also seems a problem from the standpoint of griefing in the sense that it could quickly just end your team at the beginning of the match. I can see situations in my head where the game score could be 4-5 rounds, and players wishing to extend the game because of an Execution Daily Mission or for more EXP etc. may feel compelled to ruin the fun for their team by choosing to “give the enemy a round”; In the same sense, I can also see players who “just want it to be over” taking the easy way out. One particularly lasting question I have would be… “So how does Sparks work if Friendly Fire is on?”.
  • Punishment/ Auto-Kick: A fair limit or punishment for team-killing is hard for me to envision as of right now. Have you ever thrown an Air Strike with Skyhammer and hit 3, 4, 5 enemy players or more? Better yet, have you ever encountered lag so that you couldn’t even hear an Air Strike? These problems could become problems of their own as FF is enabled, particularly if there is a “Kick when ‘X’ team kills occurs” rule. Players would highly dislike accidentally wiping out their team with something silly (Orbital Laser, Arty Strike, Air Strike etc.), feeling horrible, and ALSO being punished by being removed from the game as well as potentially put their teammates/ friends into an uphill 4v5 situation. I do believe some type of punishment should be implemented, and the “Player Vote Kick” system would be much easier to approve with smaller numbers of more-skilled players (lvl 20+) playing… and IMO may honestly be all that needs to exist. I’m not sure.
  • Area of Effect Healing Abilities: While not previously mentioned by anyone, I am of the opinion that a healing station or Phoenix Healing Pulse should also heal the enemy team. Ammo stations are already able to be used by enemies; med packs can be used by enemies, and thus, if only in FF games, I believe Area of Effect Healing Abilities should also work on enemies. Perhaps their effectiveness/ healing rate/ burst healing rate be reduced, but I think it would help with immersion.

I have written a ton of thoughts here, and I know many will not read them all the way through, which is why I attempted to format/ bold areas that I could segment my thoughts. Overall, I would be very excited to play with Friendly Fire on and even more excited to play with 5v5 as an option for team size regardless of Friendly Fire being enabled or not. Having these options of gameplay variety in public servers would be a welcome addition to Dirty Bomb and help create more diverse and strategic ways to engage enemies. Moreover, I also feel that these changes are extremely easy to implement, with much less time necessary for initial testing than any new map, game mode, or merc would require.[/left]

[center]pacman77 has spoken.
PS: WAKKA WAKKA WAKKA WAKKA WAKKA WAKKA WAKKA WAKKA WAKKA WAKKA WAKKA[/center]

(n-x) #16

@superLobster I just want to pick up on the nerf for AOE mercs. Yes, you have to be more careful how to use grenades to not hit your team mates. At the same time you only have 4 of them instead of 6 or 7. So it is easier to keep track of where they are. In general, FF on makes you use your AoE abilities more planned and careful. You shouldnt throw a panic molotov, because that way you maybe block an important route for your team. All in all it’s not that dramatic as there are just fewer players on the map and the whole game is not that chaotic. Of course, it takes time to get used to it and friendlies will be killed. But all in all it is just a way better gaming experience.

P.S. There is actually an explanation in the DB “lore” why you can pick up enemy medi packs and ammo but not getting healed by enemy Aura/Phoenix. I just cant quiet remember it. Maybe someone else can help.

(anicca444) #17

[quote=“superLobster;c-218865”][left]

[list]
[*] Griefing: I do agree with the suggested solutions to help aid in this problem. I would believe a minimum level of 20 seems most appropriate to me for FF-on games. A level 10 will have an understanding of the game, mercs, strategy, and basic map-awareness, but
[/quote]

Ranked is unlocked and accessible at level 7. So players joining ranked (FF-on) whilst being extremely unprepared is already a very real issue, introducing it to min 10 might help them get used to FF-on (something closer to ranked) before-hand, which is most of the point much of the community wants FF-on in public.

Seems to me that the small player-base overall may be the cause for the level requirement being so low for ranked… Hopefully with a playerbase boost and content over the next few months, in addition to better matchmaking (CMM shares code with ranked s2), it will be much less of an issue. That said, as with my original post… min 10 / 20 / cmm all good… I’d like all three myself :P.

[quote=“superLobster;c-218865”][left]
[] Special Abilities: [/i][/b]
[][/quote]

The “someone team-killing to manipulate rounds or something” is not something I’d considered too strongly… whilst it is probably a likely issue, I can’t see it being anything other than a rarity… I had only really thought they would enable FF-on, on Stopwatch servers, since that is what ranked is. But who knows exe/obj maybe too?

I really do think that the concerns with nader/stoker Etc are simply learning curves players must get used to… in any PUG/ranked play, players have to be much more aware of their team, their special damaging and even placement of health stations/ammo stations due to blocking path via team collisions)… and whilst it might seem like a big deal, it really isn’t once you’ve played a couple of games.

[quote=“superLobster;c-218865”][left]
[*] Punishment/ Auto-Kick: A fair limit or punishment for team-killing is hard for me to envision as of right now. Have you ever thrown an Air Strike with Skyhammer and hit 3, 4, 5 enemy players or more? … “Player Vote Kick” system would be much easier to approve with smaller numbers of more-skilled players (lvl 20+) playing… and IMO may honestly be all that needs to exist. I’m not sure.
[/quote]

Yes, type of punishment is an interesting one… I don’t think the current punishment of XP loss is adequate, and certainly not in a public setting if it auto-kicks after so many times. As you say, a vote-kick or reduced# required vote-kick may be sufficient.

[quote=“superLobster;c-218865”][left]
[*] Area of Effect Healing Abilities: While not previously mentioned by anyone, I am of the opinion that a healing station or Phoenix Healing Pulse should also heal the enemy team. Ammo stations are already able to be used by enemies; med packs can be used by enemies, and thus, if only in FF games, I believe Area of Effect Healing Abilities should also work on enemies. Perhaps their effectiveness/ healing rate/ burst healing rate be reduced, but I think it would help with immersion.
[/quote]

This is one I’ve pondered too, why does phoenix’ healing pulse not heal enemies? I can see it would be a bit too much of a pain though to be honest thinking about it… you’d never be able to heal team-mates in any close quarter combat.

<3 xx

(bgyoshi) #18

I made a similar suggestion a long long time ago here http://forums.dirtybomb.nexon.net/discussion/24753/why-ranked-is-unpopular-and-how-we-can-make-it-popular/p1

Though my solution was completely different and unrelated, it shows the odd reasoning for not allowing 5v5 FF-On pubs hasn’t gone unnoticed since the beginning.

(superLobster) #19

Ranked being unlocked at level 7, where FF-on is a thing, is completely different from the griefing we’d encounter in entirely public matches with the “savages” of every day play. Explosive mercs, AOE, AOD, seems like a “hilarious” opportunity to cause trouble in pubs. That said, I do agree with certain elements just being an extended section of the learning curve, but the hardest things to balance, IMO, are the use of Special Abilities and the proper implementation of punishment for team-killing, with the latter being the more difficult.

I would hope that a simple team-vote-kick would be just fine in a 5v5 match, particularly if FF-on was limited to players level 20 and above, but because of the nature of this game’s pace, I’d hate being removed from the game (or a teammate being removed) during a 5v5. Loss of EXP and staying in the match seems both fruitless and pointless.

(Madonna_) #20

increase ranked to level 15 or 20 and nobody will grief or troll