Forward Spawning + Bot AI Adaption


(Galaxy) #21

Forward respawning wouldn’t work on the game as it is balanced now since as people already mentioned maps are a lot smaller and linear, normally being two command posts one closer to each team’s spawn points, so if people were allowed to spawn on a captured command post most would almost always choose to do so on the second one (specially on offence), and that not only would make the main spawn point unused but it would make captured command posts a lot harder to recapture since people would be appearing next to them continually, so they would be ‘defended’ most of the time.

As they are now command post work well since they add a slight advantage to a team but are not absolutely critical, this along with being normally on the side routes of a map, makes them a secondary objective that people not normally focus all their resources on, making it possible for a single player to sidetrack from the main objective and capture it adding a slight advantage for the push on the main objective, this is not only fun to do but also a useful strategy. I have learned to not underestimate command posts since, specially when upgraded, they can make a big difference. But because they are not absolutely vital and normally away from the centre of action if one team really wanted to focus on capturing one (specially with several players) most of the time they would be able, and this ads to the multiple objective choices feel of the game.

I do agree on the matter of Bot AI though, it should be tweaked a bit so it feels more like a multiplayer game, and not like you have to do everything on your own, but then again if you won a map without doing anything it wouldn’t be very rewarding, but I still think when you rank up enemy AI gets too good for the bots on your team.


(DarkangelUK) #22

Quite a lot of people have said that they think the maps in Brink are biased towards defence, which if true means the maps aren’t balanced. A forward spawn gives the attackers the chance to shift that bias towards themselves, but this way it’s up to them to work for it rather than relying on the map design to make it easy for them.


(TONSCHUH) #23

[QUOTE=nephandys;348517]Uh…if you aren’t running out of pips ever you probably aren’t using your skills as much as you could/should. I mean you shouldn’t be out of pips all the time, but there’s reasons that skills like scavenge are in the game…Maybe you’re just playing campaign/sp? or maybe you only run as Op? (not that they never run out, but w/o having to give out buffs they’re a little better off). I mean in multiplayer as long as the teams are pretty evenly matched and especially when your on offense having the supply CP is almost a must and the health is then a nice bonus on top.

I also use CP’s all the time. One good example is in Fashionista on Resort. If you sit at supply CP with a friend and are killing the enemy while they work on hacking the door or they run up from their spawn the CP equals infinite ammo and allows you to switch class to anything you need in a pinch. Most frequently I’ll be there with a friend, he goes down, I switch to medic, rez him, and switch back to a more offensive role.

I’m not saying not using the CP’s is going make you lose, but they are definitely advantage and can help decide the winner in a match (especially when you are already at a disadvantage from the start while on offense). I find most newer players simply blow off the CP’s as unimportant, but they are extremely useful.

My thoughts on forward spawning in this game, bad idea. I think this would cause ridiculous amounts of imbalance.[/QUOTE]

… after I had some trouble with one of my hard-drives, I started from scratch again and try atm to finish the campaign in “hard” / “public” - mode with a soldier who has only soldier + universal abilities …

http://img40.imageshack.us/i/brink2011063016403183.jpg/

… I have only 3 more missions to go … I would like to have forward re-spawning at the “Early Lunch” - Map as an example …

… I had played some FreePlay matches too, but I stopped it, because we (PC) have still no stats online and I couldn’t come through the challenges yet … don’t want to play in FreePlay with standard weapons only …

… maybe I should switch sometimes the class, but makes it much sense if your character has no additional abilities for this class ? …

… the AI of your team bots are in “Early Lunch” the worse I recon or the skill gap between enemy and team bots is just to big …

:stroggtapir:


(Smoochy) #24

[QUOTE=zenstar;348186]The forward spawning makes sense in the larger maps that those games had, but I think Brink’s maps are small enough and the movement is quick enough to not need forward spawning. The only place where it makes sense is CCity and there it’s an automatic switch of spawn points once you pass a certain objective. (plus i guess all the mid-level cutscenes are forced forward spawns in a sense).

If Brink got larger maps then I’d agree that some sort of forward spawning could be cool. But as it is I think it’s too much. (Although I do miss the strogg’s ability to “create” spawn points).[/QUOTE]

+1. i say keep them as is.

with the push style of gameplay as you complete objectives you push forward anyway.

big games like BF need forward spawns. on bf2/bf2142 you could run for 5 mins to find some action!


(zenstar) #25

[QUOTE=Smoochy;348644]+1. i say keep them as is.

with the push style of gameplay as you complete objectives you push forward anyway.

big games like BF need forward spawns. on bf2/bf2142 you could run for 5 mins to find some action![/QUOTE]

Not to mention that forward spawning removes one major disadvantage of the heavy body type. (He’s still a tubby guy though :tongue:).


(DarkangelUK) #26

I seem to see the issues mostly on the escort objectives (escort bot stages on CC or Resort). On CC the further the bot gets, the further the Security are from the bot, the closer the Resistance are. Possibly a spawn shift depending on the area the bot is at, like when the bot makes it into the tunnel that runs parallel with the Resistance spawn, have the Security spawn shift to the blown gate area. I don’t think the maps are too small, just the way the objectives are implemented into the maps mean that the maps are sliced into chunks of active areas which give the appearance of being small… many Brink maps could do with forward or shifting spawns mid-objective and not just on switch over to new objective.


(zenstar) #27

That could work. Spawn shifting at a set point in the objective is different to capping a forward spawn.

I don’t really have an issue with the escort quests at the moment but I pub my games so it’s a normally a lot looser.

I can see an argument favouring your position here though.

I wouldn’t even mind capping forward spawns in a map made especially for it… maybe some sort of tug of war mode? where both sides get objectives to push their forward spawns towards soem endgoal and both sides can take back those forward spawns. The map would have to be fairly big though otherwise it’d turn into a continuous stalemate with everyone fighting in the middle.


(DarkangelUK) #28

Well the forward spawn is only for the attackers, it’s usually closer to the objective but off to the side so it’s not on the path to the objective or a key tactical location where sitting in it is of an advantage to the team. So while the spawn is nice to have, it’s not in a key place where it can be used as a cover spot. The attackers want it to reduce travel time, the defenders want it removed so they gain a time advantage over the defenders… but both come at a cost. If it’s being given more attention that the primary objective, then it’s been implemented incorrectly. It should always be a risk going for it for the defenders, leaving the objective exposed while they spend manpower retaking it, and also the attackers spending manpower on capturing it while having too little resource to push to the main objective and running out time.

I can however see the time issue not being that critical because of the sheer amount of time per objective you have. When I’m on defence, hunkered down and securing the objective… I get bored tbh. I constantly find myself looking at the timer and groaning at the amount of time left. I’d love to have that tug of war going on in my head to spice things up a bit. Do I defend the main objective but let the enemy have the travel time advantage, meaning if I die I have less time to get back here to defend (which would push me to rely on my medics more), or do I leave the objective exposed and attempt to remove that advantage from the enemy? Everything is just too focused on a single point of the map at any one time for my liking.

I agree though, a lot of sections of the maps are too small for it, but some could use. Not every map in RtCW had forward spawns, but the ones that did were better for them.


(zenstar) #29

[QUOTE=DarkangelUK;348667]Well the forward spawn is only for …

… map in RtCW had forward spawns, but the ones that did were better for them.[/QUOTE]
A nicely summed up explanation of good forward spawn implementation. Thanks.
I agree that good usage of a forward spawn point can add excitement to a game and would work well on maps designed to use it.

The more I read your arguement the more I agree that the escort missions could use a forward spawn capture point off in a side room somewhere. I can’t see anywhere in the current maps that it’d fit, but that’s easy to remedy.


(GLUGLUG) #30

I think they are moving some of the spawns now.
I just lost a round on Terminal cause the Defense never got a new spawn point when the objectives changed.
I’m almost positive that when they crack the safe, the def. spawn is supposed to change. I know everyone remembers getting the data key but having to take it to the terminal IN THEIR SPAWN.
well, apparently it’s not their spawn anymore. All you have to do is make it out of the safe room with the
Data Key and you’re golden, they can only spawn behind you at that point. Good luck defending the upload terminal. Maybe I’m crazy but it didn’t used to be that way did it?


(TONSCHUH) #31

[QUOTE=Kurushi;348062]CPs can make all the difference, especially once upgraded, yet they’re accessible to both teams quite easily.

Spawning on CPs just wouldn’t work without a massive redesign. Maybe I’m the only person that doesn’t think running takes too long, unless I’m constantly going in rambo, then it gets boring, but that’s my fault.[/QUOTE]

… ok, I tried something different … leveled my soldier down and made him to an Op / Engineer … works so far wonderful for part-1 of “Early Lunch” … could repair the crane control with 03:30 left on the timer, but in part-2 (the control hack) your are quite alone as an Op … the medics hardly make it through to me if I get killed around the hack … even that I’m now only on Level 13 / Rank 3, the enemy bot AI is much better then the AI of my team mates … as an Op without help against all the enemy bots + turrets in such a small part of the map + trying to hack is quite frustrating … can’t be only my gaming skills … get an average of 3500 - 5000 points on this map … I only hope that they fix it somehow … if I don’t hack it myself and play as an soldier, no one will hack it from my bot mates … quite stupid …

… back to the forward re-spawning: …

… waiting for a medic in part-1 of “Early Lunch” as an example is quite useless … 1 out of 5 medics make it through if I’m lying at the crane controls … re-spawning is, even with this long way back, much faster … even playing with humans will not always change the situations, because as I mentioned before, there are many ways to level up your character, if you’re a good player or not …

… seems to be quite hard to get some humans playing with you in campaign mode atm …

… in FreePlay the forward spawning would maybe prevent that you get to many times this all enemies against 1 situations, because you have to split up in minimum 2 groups to capture / hold the command post and to work on the main objectives …

:stroggtapir: