flat textures need to be allowed again

(Nail) #21

yep, looks like poo

yes, I know what it is

(Ashog) #22

[QUOTE=Kroad;533073]I think it’s quite obvious at this point that optimization isn’t going very well, and it’s even been stated on dev stream 2 days ago that optimization is going slowly.

Considering that this game doesn’t perform too well: it stutters, has memory leaks and most struggle to get good fps, and that unreal engine is known for poor performance, I really don’t think you should be limiting cvars that massively boost performance because of an imaginary advantage.[/QUOTE]

How about no? I am convinced they should actually make the limitations stronger.

The advantage is not imaginary but absolute. Point.

(47__) #23

Why does a game have to look “good” to be competitive, that makes zero sense what so ever.

_2892-.jpg1001×720 122 KB

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd176/dyslixec/picmip16.jpg
http://www.sofplayers.co.uk/images/bot.jpg
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk62/dervykins/quake024-2.png

Just 4 games with flat textures, which had/has a competitive community AND eye candy options for the “casuals”

(Szakalot) #24

[QUOTE=Nail;533215]yep, looks like poo

yes, I know what it is[/QUOTE]

yup, what Nail said.

If DB only attempted to be the new ET, than sure; keep the gfx from old games for them FPS zealots.

If any game attempts to draw a new crowd in, gotta keep up with the times man!

(47__) #25

[QUOTE=Szakalot;533234]yup, what Nail said.

If DB only attempted to be the new ET, than sure; keep the gfx from old games for them FPS zealots.

If any game attempts to draw a new crowd in, gotta keep up with the times man![/QUOTE]

Or maybe, JUST MAYBE, you could give both. Eye candy for the casuals and customizability for who ever wants it.

mind blowing idea!

(Kroad) #26

[QUOTE=47__;533240]Or maybe, JUST MAYBE, you could give both. Eye candy for the casuals and customizability for who ever wants it.

mind blowing idea![/QUOTE]

impossible, then the casuals would be stomped by new players!

[QUOTE=Ashog;533230]How about no? I am convinced they should actually make the limitations stronger.

The advantage is not imaginary but absolute. Point.[/QUOTE]
not at all, it’s literally just preference, more or less everything you can see with flat textures is visible with 32/64, which is why players like chickennwaffles, who actually made flat textures popular, chose not to use them themselves in cups because they preferred non flat textures

I also prefer 32/64 textures over flat textures, only reason I used them is performance. If flat textures was such an advantage, I could very easily just open up a certain program, set lodbias to 15 and have flat textures (hell, i did it for a couple of days after the cvar limitation), there’d be literally no way of anyone finding out and I really don’t consider it cheating.
The reason I stopped using it a couple of days after the cvar limitation is simply that I prefer 32/64 as it feels better, and having flat textures this way wouldn’t raise fps, which is mostly what I wanted.

(Ashog) #27

The key word here being MORE OR LESS. That’s the point. It should be not more or less, it should be at least exactly same visibility.
Even more, the problem here is not even so much what you can see, but how fast you can see. Removal of additional texture details significantly decreases time the eye and brain needs to scan, detect and make a decision about, whether the item is a target or part of background and where it moves to and how fast. Every few milliseconds of advantage caused by faster target detection is often a thing that decides whether the enemy kills you or you take the upper hand. I thought these were obvious to everyone, I wonder why one has to explain this over and over.

And, how someone mentioned in IRC, people having capable enough PC to get on average 140-180 fps but still using lego textures “for performance” as a disclaimer are just laughable piplz.

(Volcano) #28

if sd could make camden less orange that would be great especially first phase enemy team blends in far to well on defense

(Kroad) #29

[QUOTE=Ashog;533249]The key word here being MORE OR LESS. That’s the point. It should be not more or less, it should be at least exactly same visibility.
[/quote]
yes just like high settings to medium settings have same visibility, wait not at all, high settings are awful.

People aren’t robots. It’s not all about visual clarity, making a config isn’t like being an engineer trying to find every little ms of advantage here and there, preference is a huge factor, and the feel of various settings can be a lot more advantageous than some visual clarity offering an ms or two of faster reaction time. The very fact that, while flat textures were allowed, some competitive players chose not to use them shows that it’s not black and white, they didn’t choose to disadvantage themselves, they were just better with higher settings.

Maybe you can react faster to flat textures, but the head hitbox is less obvious, the low quality of characters can make tracking them not feel as good (not really something that can be explained, english not my first language either).
There was one setting that I thought was an undeniable advantage (bright playermodels) yet most people hated them, despite the fact that they made reaction times a lot faster, simply because humans are not robots and there are millions of factors that go into aiming.

And like i said, the simple fact that competitive players chose to not use flat textures because they preferred higher quality shows 100% that it’s all personal preference, but of course I’m sure that you know better than them.

[QUOTE=Ashog;533249]
And, how someone mentioned in IRC, people having capable enough PC to get on average 140-180 fps but still using lego textures “for performance” as a disclaimer are just laughable piplz.[/QUOTE]
that implies that 140fps is smooth in this game, guess what? It isn’t. Stuttering, memory leak, variance in frame times, etc, all stuff that isn’t shown by fps yet has a very obvious effect, and flat textures help solve this.

(Ashog) #30

Yet this is what you guys are claiming to achieve all the time using flat textures - 2 ms here and 3 ms there… (see your own last sentence).

, preference is a huge factor, and the feel of various settings can be a lot more advantageous than some visual clarity offering an ms or two of faster reaction time.

Yes, but from certain minimum level. What I am claiming is that this minimum level is currently set too low.

The very fact that, while flat textures were allowed, some competitive players chose not to use them shows that it’s not black and white, they didn’t choose to disadvantage themselves, they were just better with higher settings.

The point is that not only the selected few competitive players do that, but everybody does that, else it wouldn’t work. And this is only possible by setting strict limitations and carefullly thought through minimum levels of texture quality… That is what the devs are doing currenlty, I only hope that they don’t cater again to some loud/big mouths and don’t come up with an intermediate ineffective solution, as it often happened.

Maybe you can react faster to flat textures, but the head hitbox is less obvious, the low quality of characters can make tracking them not feel as good (not really something that can be explained, english not my first language either).

I don’t agree with this observation at all.

There was one setting that I thought was an undeniable advantage (bright playermodels) yet most people hated them, despite the fact that they made reaction times a lot faster, simply because humans are not robots and there are millions of factors that go into aiming.

Most or not - couldn’t care less. It should be all so that players have a same base level of graphics to start with so there’s never any legitimacy doubts and no more cfg wars, but rather pure skill wars.

that implies that 140fps is smooth in this game, guess what? It isn’t. Stuttering, memory leak, variance in frame times, etc, all stuff that isn’t shown by fps yet has a very obvious effect, and flat textures help solve this.

Except that they don’t. Memory leak and cpu bottleneck have nothing to do with textures. This game is cpu bottlenecked, not gpu. Devs have said it many times. I can still play the game using current menu’s low settings smoothly using my GTX285, provided I overclock my i7-920 cpu.

(47__) #31

This discussion has been going on for years. Its like watching 2 special kids hitting each other with wooden spoons.

The conclusion of the “discussion” must be this:

Cater to both sides.

Developers lock commands they don’t want people to use.
Allow both eyecandy setups and tweaked wtf legomincraft settings.

Then people can play the game the way they want. People can then cry all they want about them doing so, but no one will care because the game is designed that way.

The end.

(Ashog) #32

[QUOTE=47__;533256]
Allow both eyecandy setups and tweaked wtf legomincraft settings.

That way people play the game the way they want and people can cry all they want about them doing so.[/QUOTE]

Well then this game’s comp side dies just the same way ETQW’s did.

(47__) #33

It didn’t die because of tweaks! It died because the game was horrible and there were hardly any sponsors willing to throw cash at it.

Even if SD decides to lock and/or limit certain settings there are plenty of option these days in your graphics cards option menu to get “flat textures”. In the old days you just downloaded rivatuner or the like, today you don’t even need a 3rd part app for it.

So unless they create a / buy a license to an anticheat like punkbuster that could take raw screenshots of the players monitor there is NO way to prevent it from happening. Unless they want to kick people if they use certain settings on their own system.

(DarkangelUK) #34

Lego graphics are bull**** and give an edge, end of, people can preach saying they prefer it that way and that’s how they like to play but they still get an advantage above others that don’t dick about with settings… and most of the time I don’t believe that thats just how they ‘prefer’ to play and that the visual advantage doesn’t make them prefer it. If there’s no performance gain below 256 then it should be locked to that. I hope the new AC also does something to combat config whores.

I’ll also go out on a limb and bet 99% of those who ‘prefer’ that look don’t dick around with their fave single player games to make them look like crap.

(mti_) #35

Why is that even an issue? I like to tinker with my .cfg so that I get the absolute best performance and visibility out of it.
They said they would add a “minimalistic”/competitive preset down the line so people would not even have to be “config whores” to make that work.
Its yet another thing to do/customize to give you an edge but apparently thats a bad thing now. To me it adds depth and another thing to “master”.
Yes someone first starting up the game would not be able to see things as easily as me but thats how I like it and I also highly doubt that he could process the obtained info the same way a veteran could anyway.
You have to get into it to get it to where and how you want it. I would hope that at some point the MM system actually works to the point where I dont play against those kind of people anyway and I honestly dont see why people are using derogatory terms (“config whore”, really?) to describe people who do whatever it takes to get an edge. As someone who goes thru every single option menu in every game I ever boot up I hate the negative attitude towards people like me.
I dont play MP games for eye candy. I want it to be maximum functionality.

(DarkangelUK) #36

Did you just say that customising your cfg to give you an advantage over others isn’t a bad thing?

lol

(mti_) #37

Yes, thats exactly what I said. I dont like my games set up by developers I like to decided how I want it myself.
We are not talking about some obscure netcode values. We are talking about texture detail. If I want mine to be minimalistic because the look of the walls is not what I care about I feel I should be able to change that. If you feel you are having trouble IDing targets maybe you should look into changing up your values as well rather than suggest that everyone should have their game look the same.
Especially with the addition of a preset competitive config I honestly dont see what the issue is.
To me tinkering with HUD and gfx options to get the most functionality out of a game is something I like doing and I dont care if someone who put less effort into it has got a less optimized experience. I would want the devs to help them out with ingame settings for everything important (like they already are working on) and/or a preset that actually is competitive with what users make themselves (like they already are working on). If it is accesbile to all users it creastes a level playing field.
Keeping me from doing what I like because not everyone can be bothered to doesnt seem like a good way to go.

e: Lets not pretend that texture detail is really as big of an issue as you make it out to be. I am not asking to edit my config to have god mode on but I sure want my picmip and lod options.

(DarkangelUK) #38

It gives you an edge over others = not allowed and a scummy way to play. Long post for nothing mate

(fubar) #39

Using the “low” preset as opposed to “high” gives you an edge too! Let’s just remove all profiles and have everyone run around with 30 fps to make sure absolutely everyone gets force-ably distracted and annoyed by useless sun flares.

(mti_) #40

You seem rather emotional about the issue and I cant really argue with someone who just keeps banging on about his subjective oppinion without apparently having read my post.
To put it in simple, short terms: If there is ingame settings for everything and a premade config it should not matter if the graphics are “Lego” or not, its personal preference. You want to prevent things because you cant be arsed. Play with some Quake configs to get a perspective and stop calling others whores and scum.