First player advantage

(EL-CO) #1

Hi. I think that the first player have some advantages. If the first player quickly keep the covered position in the center area, there are not so many things the second player can do. Especially when the first player using melee units, it is really hard because of the high AP of melee weapons.
I know it depends on the maps and squads, but still I feel that there are some advantage to the first player. It might be better that the units of the first player have lower energy in the very first turn (ex. light unit: 12>8, mid unit: 14>10, heavy unit: 18>12).
How do you think?

(tinker) #2

I do not think so at all.
does “white” has an advantage in chess?
you cannot say that at all.
There are pros and cons of moving first:
pro: you are quicker then enemy and get areas first
con: the enemy might see your way and strategie and may adapt his own.
pro: you have more space to perform your own strategie
con: the enemy may walk around you more easily and attack/ kill you from the side or back.

thats just a thing you cannot avoid in async. games, there are always people who claim that one side has an advantage but at the end it will be an even chance to both players.

hope you get my point

with friendly regards
me

(EL-CO) #3

Most people will agree with that the white has an advantage in chess (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-move_advantage_in_chess), and there are a lot of turn-based two player games which has a handicap to compensate first player advantage (ex. Go). But of course, Rad soldiers is not chess or Go.
However, if there is significant advantage for first player (say, 60% of the games won by the first player or something) and if the game can set an appropriate handicap, that would be really great.
The pros and cons you suggested tell nothing about the overall advantage in the game. What I can see from those pros and cons is that the first player has more control over the entire game: second player has to adopt his strategy to the first player. And sometimes it’s hard to adopt your strategy simply because you haven’t selected appropriate units/weapons/commander abilities.
Debuffing melee weapons may help this. But currently it’s really hard to fight if the first player quickly occupied center area with 3 light knife units (in 12 pts squad).

(tinker) #4

knife :smiley: the weakest melee weapon overall.
I havent had a game with no rematch.
he uses knifes, you go for lumber numberer.
it is more then 2x the damage.
I lost my few games i lost all through lumber numberer that killed my whole team. on light units you may walk 8!! cells and the enemy’s char is DEAD.(vs light unit) 6 cells and he is dead ( vs. mid ) and still 4 !! cells ( or other input) for heavy units.

he had a lumber numberer. I lured him out and focused him down at first and i won the next few games.
adaption is all you need in this game! ( well, if you have the “brain” to adapt and / or the units+weapons)

you think the second play has a disadvantage, just invite me, youll get the first turn ( bcs you invited) and we will see if there is an advantage or not.

the melee weapons are fine. sure, some of them are VERY strong … but the KNIFE ? it is about 33 dmg a hit, if a crit 43-45… even if you stand close to me with a light unit i need all 6 hits ( 12 energy) to kill you, but you will not come that close…

I have played a lot yet and i would not say that all players i played against are “noobs” bcs i have seen so many different setups. so many different playstyles. there is nothing imbalance i have found yet and believe me… i have seen A LOT.

at the beginning i thought the same… i even did a post with the recommandation to push knife // pull down lumber numberer.
I like starting the turn because i can play aggressive then but i do the same playstyle if im the 2nd… i am aggressive and at the same time i lure you out and wait for my perfect turn ( mostly taking 1 out without losing one of mine)
people that i rematched just did the wrong thing. instead of playing as agressiv, they did not even use 1/2 of their energy in the first turn. you should only do that on bridge with 2/ 3 guys with returning fire and the commander in between that but even there it is not the perfect choice.

i hope my points are clear

with friendly regards
me

(EL-CO) #5

I’m not making any conclusion here. I understand that you can win most of the games even as a second player, but it just tells me that you are a very skillful player. The world champion will win most of the game as black, but yet there is an advantage for white in chess. Maybe you are too strong to see such a subtle difference.
You can see the truth only by stats of thousands of games. There may be a constant advantage for a first player, an advantage only in specific maps, no advantage at all, or disadvantage for a first player. I’m just raising a question to improve the game experience. If there is an advantage for one player, it is possible to compensate it by changing the energy in the very first turn, modifying the starting position a few squares, or simply giving extra reward coins for the second player (btw, I think it would be nice to give some extra reward coins to the winner).

For knife, yes, it is the weakest melee weapons. But as I wrote, you can use 3 knives (+a commander of course) in 12 pts squad which will give you one more unit. 2 knives (36x2) are as powerful as an ax (75) with more life and additional abilities, if used right.

(tinker) #6

having 4 squad members in a 12point squad is so much harder to play…
you only got the damage through your abilitys, which run out after 1-3 uses. If the enemy is good and places his characters right with a melee weapon of your choice and at least 1 medic it is easily won.
and btw, make a 1vs 2 - no abilitys, 1 with axe vs 2 with knifes, the axe will win by 80%.

believe me, i get your point and i DO agree you in some points BUT
trust me if i say: adaption is everything.
You CANNOT have a strikt grid of what turn to do over and over, well, yes (we) can… it is mostly what bots do. I know the problem of the player starting first so well, mostly on small maps like Market or Bridge where you hit the enemy within the 2nd turn( if you want).
the “answer” or how to avoid beeing the first one to get killed or hit: Use MOST of your energy, but stay behind cover, in a way a gas grenade will not hit all character, a dave’s grenade will not do 50+60+50 dmg, an artillery will not push you out of cover to get damaged by the enemy. But let him the “chance” to do great damage.
especially new players will throw their Dave’s grenade without thinking again about it JUST to do damage. That is MOSTLY wrong.
I get hit by the grenade, he had to come close so his dave is exposed or easily to push out of his cover with artiller… some abilitys and maybe attacks and he is down. with my Medic i just heal that char back up.
Do just throw your grenades for damage, if the enemy has no medic and you have ( still ) enough to EASILY kill a 200hp char.

And this works over and over again.
I rarely loose one of my characters before the enemy bcs i play agressiv but at the same time very protective.

building up a strategy is the first thing you should do… you will see the game in a very different way. and that also goes for advantages or disadvantages.
I did not like angela merci much at the beginning but i began to like her after a few games where i wasted my abilitys.( just a true example)

BTW… I do agree, the winner needs some extra reward coins, I like the fact that they are given for health left compared to the other one but the winner should get a little reward, extra coins, extra coins all N won games, 1 rad bux / 1 rad bux all N won games, just a little bonus :slight_smile:

with friendly regards
me