First Impressions

(DB Genome editor) #1

Just a few general things I noticed in my first couple of games…

- Class Archetypes:
So far I’m OK with the roles of the classes, I’d rather some of them remain with no class-specific objectives if introducing them would feel artificial or “forced”. What bugs me however is the number of Rambo medics I have come across. Light medics going Lonewolf is one of the things I hated in Brink and I’m afraid I’m seeing it again with Sawbonez (not so much with Hardy). The speed, decent weapon loadout and ability to self-heal quickly anywhere make him the perfect character for that, but it feels horribly wrong for me to see one or two medics lead the charge and dominate the scoreboard for kills. Intuitively you’d expect the medic to be a support class, not a fast assault class.

- Objectives:
I’ll let others debate the pros and cons of actual objectives, I haven’t played enough yet to form an significant opinion. However, what I did notice right away is how confusing the objective icons are. The first time on any of the maps I had no idea what I was supposed to do at these locations and which class I needed to be to do it. Can we have different icons for PDA vs engie objectives? For “build this” vs “prevent the enemy from building this”? Say an engie build objective could show the wrench icon for the attackers and the shield icon with a wrench in the middle for the defenders, while an all-class activation objective could show a PDA icon in place of the wrench, perhaps?

- Model Skins:
Is there something wrong with my setup or are both teams all wearing the same skin sets (the Desert Fox ones)? What happened with the corresponding Vulture team skins seen in the developers videos? And if both sides are to use the same skins, why not go back to the original / default ones? I know I’m repeating myself but these team skins look too much like wall paper, especially the first sets made for the older models. Everybody has very distinctive clothing and gear, but somehow all of it was manufactured with the same 2-3 rolls of fabric :rolleyes:

Obviously there is a long way to go before a release, but overall I like the game so far. Then again, I’ve seen a number of posts saying that this latest build was a lot more enjoyable than previous ones, so maybe I’m just lucky I joined late :wink:

(OwNLY) #2

Medic is pretty much the default class. If you don´t know what class, play medic.
The revive function is stronger than every other class ability.

Guys like soldiers and engies are only needed if they are doing the obj,
fops maybe one in the team for ammo and do some area denial / EV-Damge with the airstrike.

And there we have the thing that most good players play medic,
because they can really help their team with revives and health,
while they can make their personal skill matter with enough health.

(DB Genome editor) #3

[QUOTE=OwNLY;450938]Medic is pretty much the default class. If you don´t know what class, play medic.
The revive function is stronger than every other class ability.

Guys like soldiers and engies are only needed if they are doing the obj,
fops maybe one in the team for ammo and do some area denial / EV-Damge with the airstrike.

And there we have the thing that most good players play medic,
because they can really help their team with revives and health,
while they can make their personal skill matter with enough health.[/QUOTE]
So you’re basically saying that the medic is an all around better class? That’s exactly what I don’t want to see in a game! If the medic (or any other class) is superior all-around and the obvious “go-to” class, then it’s not balanced properly. People should pick one class over another because it suits their playing style better or because the team needs that class, not because it is clearly superior.

Since revive and health packs are superior to other abilities, then balance would demand that medics are slightly weaker offensively and/or more brittle than other class to compensate and put them on equal footing. In an ideal situation, skill levels being equal, a good mix of classes should always be better then a lopsided distribution, but right now I have the impression that a team of 6 medics + 1 FOps (to feed them ammo) + 1 soldier/engie (as required by the objectives) would be perfectly viable :frowning:

(rand0m) #4

The medic isn’t the all around better class. The medic is there to revive people. It’s all about what you wanna do. Do you wanna heal someone? Do you wanna put down the most firepower? Do you wanna hand out ammo and throw in artillery and air strikes? Do you wanna blow up walls? Fix things and lay down turrets?

It’s not a case of it being the better class. This isn’t an MMO. It’s an fps with gameplay objectives. The objective of the medic is to revive people. He isn’t overpowered…you know how you stop the medic? You gib people. Medic loses. Don’t paint the picture of the medic being the best class and unbalanced because it’s not true.

How are revive and health packs superior when each team can have medics? Your point is moot. You defeat the medics purpose by killing and gibbing.

The ev needs a little extra HP I think to require more field ops and air strikes. Everyone needs to stop spawning with ill ammo ala RTCW/ET to make handing out ammo absolutely necessary.

(OwNLY) #5

[QUOTE=Djiesse;450960]
but right now I have the impression that a team of 6 medics + 1 FOps (to feed them ammo) + 1 soldier/engie (as required by the objectives) would be perfectly viable :([/QUOTE]

5on5 i would go with 2-3medics, 1 Fops, and 1-2 objective guys.

A revive chain is just really effective and hard to balance.
If gibbing gets much easier, medics lose their value.
Maybe we could try doing gibs a bit faster, seems pretty slow in the moment…
btw. the Medic is just a close to midrange class, but all the maps are really tight.

In pretty much every game where you can revive fallen mates,
the medic is the default class (at least in the competetive scene).
Nothing beats getting fallen mates directly back into the fight.

(rand0m) #6

The medic is always beatable. Aim for the head, gib his fallen enemies. He’s defeated.

(woll3) #7

Captain? Is it you?

(rand0m) #8

Uh what…

(DB Genome editor) #9

Did you only read my posts or did you have a look at OwNLY’s as well? He is the one arguing that medics are indeed the superior class and that in competition the other classes are only played by necessity (FOps to feed ammo, soldier and engie only for objectives). That’s his experience and what I’ve seen in the last week seems to corroborate that: medics dominating in numbers and in performance, nearly all the top players in the games I played were medics and they didn’t get to the top of the scoreboard on their revive and healing points alone as shown by their K/D results.

Sorry, what are you trying to say here? :confused:

I’m talking about medics being unbalanced with respect to other classes. Of course it does not unbalance gameplay since both teams have access to them, but it makes the game feel wrong because a) there shouldn’t be a class that the majority of people consider superior, and b) medics should not dominate in firefights. Putting gameplay and special abilities aside, when I look at the classes roles and their RL equivalent, I would expect the following relationship in terms of fighting ability:

Sniper > Soldier > FOps / Engi > Medic > Sniper

Note: I’ve put the sniper at both ends because in the right conditions (long range with open line of sight) he should be the most powerful and in the wrong conditions (close quarters) the weakest.
I suspect most newcomers to the game would have similar expectations…

(rand0m) #10

What happened to pc gamers.

(woll3) #11

Medics arent really “superior”, Sawbonez actually has the weakest primary over distance, he´s a bit better than Arty at infights in theory(rpm and stuff) and thats where smgs should be good at, in reality the better aimer still wins, if all bullets hit the target he is inferior to Skyhammer, Soldier 01 + 02 DPS wise so i wouldnt call medics “dominating”, more like certain players. Not to mention that the medic is always necessary, no matter the objective, without medics you wont advance far.

And that is actually how it currently is.

(INF3RN0) #12

I find every class to be beatable, however the deciding factor is ‘usefulness’. I find engineer and covert don’t really bring a whole lot to the team overall, and soldier is just an alternative to medic if you want a bigger clip. I just wish that some of the other classes had less gimmicky/bleh support abilities. I don’t mind maintaining the weapon balance as long as that balance carries over into abilities too, but the ability aspect is a bit weak in a lot of places and you end up just playing some classes if they are required for the main objective.

Again as usual, plugging class specific map side objs and more useful special abilities *cough emp, smoke, etc.

(Nail) #13

For years I always thought people played medic for self health, silly me

(Hundopercent) #14

Don’t have a choice in DB when people take 5 dome shots but you die in 3.

(maxxxxlol) #15

I would rather not have rock paper scissors in a fps. Losing to someone just because they happen to be a certain class is frustrating.

(Nail) #16

in W:ET I played engi, someone had to win the maps

(DB Genome editor) #17

Are you saying I’m not a “true PC gamer” because I’d like to see the classes properly balanced and equally attractive or because I have delusions that they should more or less behave as one would expect in real life rather then how they did in a previous game?

I’m not contesting that the medic’s firepower is not the best, but it’s the combination with his ability to self-heal, that makes him much more potent. In a fight with any of these guys you mentioned as having more DPS, if he can get away for a few seconds he’ll come back at full health and finish them off. Rinse, repeat and you can do hit and runs until you run out of ammo…

[QUOTE=INF3RN0;451023]I find every class to be beatable, however the deciding factor is ‘usefulness’. I find engineer and covert don’t really bring a whole lot to the team overall, and soldier is just an alternative to medic if you want a bigger clip. I just wish that some of the other classes had less gimmicky/bleh support abilities. I don’t mind maintaining the weapon balance as long as that balance carries over into abilities too, but the ability aspect is a bit weak in a lot of places and you end up just playing some classes if they are required for the main objective.

Again as usual, plugging class specific map side objs and more useful special abilities *cough emp, smoke, etc.[/QUOTE]

Totally agree with all of the above. I’m not necessarily advocating a nerfing of the medic and I’d be quite happy to see the other classes improved to make them more attractive.

And you feel that’s the way it should be in a game that wants to promote team play? I’d rather see people play medic to help the team, not because they want to improve their own survivability while they go Rambo on the other team.

And it shouldn’t happen. I’m not looking for a hard counter relationship between classes, just equal balance. But since some dominate ability-wise, they need to be weaker fighting-wise. As woll3 pointed out the trend seems to be correct on the firepower side, but when you put everything together the classes still don’t feel equal :frowning:

I’d really like to see some Echo data on the relative use of the classes and their typical XP/min stats to put all this in perspective.

(Raviolay) #18

The only way you are going to make a support class like the medic actually play like I support class. Is to change how they play mechanically sadly any suggestion that does this, is not Dirty Bomb (even though the game is in gestation as it stands). Well I am going to post it anyway to be picked apart and down rep’ed & ridiculed.

First off all classes lose the heal over time when out of combat, and a proper health bar/percentage meter is put in. This is the bit where the arguments and derivatives start. Thrown consumables like heath packs and ammo packs do not benefit the player who throws them nor do they benefit players playing the same class.

Instead both the medic and support have a similar ability tied to there role for personnel use, both can dip out of combat (or in if you are mad) and use a patch up/restock ability. That restores full health or ammo, however you are exposed, static and unarmed while doing so and the animation is uninterruptible. The animation it’s self could be like FarCry 2/3 with a bandage round a arm and a shot of meds for the medic. With the support just filling his mag out of a bag of loose ball. The time it takes for such actions to take could also be tied how many on your team are playing a particular class, so a team with 4 medics/support will take longer to self heal/restock vs a team with two. Further exemplifying that they are a support role not intended go soloing, if you want that go solider.

(OwNLY) #19

At the moment i feel that every class has it´s strengths and weaknesses.
Maybe not the shotguns, the maps are pretty close-combat designed.

Soldiers have these huge and effective weapons, more HP and nades. Tank with legs.
Fops have Airstrikes, a pretty nice gun, and unlimited ammo. Area denial, ammo refill.
Engies have a mediocre gun, can put a turret/mine which works as a second player. Doing the obj.
Covops do about 80-85 dmg with one bodyshot and can spot players. Area control.
Medic has a mediocre gun, but can heal and revive. Backbone to keep the attack going.

The selfheal has already been nerfed, and i think it´s pretty nice like it is.
You have to hide from fire to heal yourself. If you need some time for that (like it´s now),
your enemy had time to either rush you down while selfhealing or to get away.

(rand0m) #20

[QUOTE=Raviolay;451079]The only way you are going to make a support class like the medic actually play like I support class. Is to change how they play mechanically sadly any suggestion that does this, is not Dirty Bomb (even though the game is in gestation as it stands). Well I am going to post it anyway to be picked apart and down rep’ed & ridiculed.

First off all classes lose the heal over time when out of combat, and a proper health bar/percentage meter is put in. This is the bit where the arguments and derivatives start. Thrown consumables like heath packs and ammo packs do not benefit the player who throws them nor do they benefit players playing the same class.

Instead both the medic and support have a similar ability tied to there role for personnel use, both can dip out of combat (or in if you are mad) and use a patch up/restock ability. That restores full health or ammo, however you are exposed, static and unarmed while doing so and the animation is uninterruptible. The animation it’s self could be like FarCry 2/3 with a bandage round a arm and a shot of meds for the medic. With the support just filling his mag out of a bag of loose ball. The time it takes for such actions to take could also be tied how many on your team are playing a particular class, so a team with 4 medics/support will take longer to self heal/restock vs a team with two. Further exemplifying that they are a support role not intended go soloing, if you want that go solider.[/QUOTE]

Only thing I agree with is removing self heal over time, and adding a health percentage and numbers rather then the bar is the right direction to go.