Exploits on maps should be removed?

(LMuerteMan) #1

I would like that the places in various maps where you can leap and go to the other team spaces to be removed
examples:

In underground first part where defending team from the roof of the room in the middle can jump to the left side where elevator gets the attacking team (it gives you a unfair advantage since in there you can spot almost all the other team from higher ground)

Or in chapel in the second part where attacking team can go to the re spawn jumping in the fence and getting to the turret right where the other team spawns (It’s really cheap since you can kill lots of enemies from the back with little effort)

In terminal although is pretty hard in the first half attacking team can in some way enter through the windows to the left and go where the defending team spawns after they have lost the forward spawn, I have also seen people making the jump and getting in from the right side (this exploits IMO are not so severe because is really hard for the other team not to notice you)

I think is really cheap to take advantage of this map exploits and in my opinion makes the game boring
What you guys think? Are there other map exploits?

(Dawnlazy) #2

Those jumps are all there by design choice, it’s why we have longjumps and walljumps in the first place.

(BushWanker) #3

Its a key aspect of the game that me, and many others enjoy!

(nokiII) #4

While I agree that the Balcony spot on Underground is completely broken for defenders, removing all of those jumps out of the game is not option.

(bontsa) #5

All the examples you’ve given are something I’ve never in my +900 in-game hours heard anyone call “exploits”. They’re definitely more of map knowledge and good utilization of the games movement system. I feel like this is coming from a completely public game- oriented view in which case you should keep in mind anything works in chaos and obliviousness that roams there.

I’ll start with Chapel. Ever had the situation where EV is stopped just few meters off the goal point? It’s ridiculously hard to beat without utilizing this trickjump you described, as it’s only way to shake up any sensible Defenders. The jump overall is completely fine, you’re very vulnerable sitting on that MG there all alone. More awareness from Defenders and the flanker(s) gets annihilated in no time.

Terminal. That window is usable by both Attack and Defense in plethora of situations depending on who owns the forward spawn.

Underground, sweet fullholdground. It all comes down to hold on that balcony and roof of 1st objective which is indeed silly. Still not the fault of jump itself as far as I see it, but rather bad design of the routes and lack of cover in Attacker side “yard”.

Basically anything you seem to consider as “exploits” become such not directly because of utilizing the movement system or the jump spot itself but because of other design flaws.

(LMuerteMan) #6

@bontsa Thanks for the Answer.

I called them exploits because I don’t know what name to call those flaws in map design.

I also enjoy the mobility of the game and the wall and long jumps. But this should be used to reach points in the maps faster by skipping the standar and slower way to get to the same point by other means. For example a higher place that you could access by a stair, but if you use a wall jump you can get there faster. Like in train yard when in the first stage of the map the attackers can go to left and enter the turret room from the window by wall jumping and risking that time if they missed the jump or can take more time and go trough the door.

I have to disagree with your explination about chapel. You are right in the fact that my statement is oriented to the pubs games I normally play just in pubs. That doesn’t mean it’s not something that shouldn’t be fixed.
In that point in chapel if in a competitive game 4 players on that team go through the fence they are atomaticly in the respawn area of the other team and that is really unfair. I also forgot to mention that in the last stage the defending team has only one exit that or route wich is really easy to spawn with any merc whether it’s an airstrike especiallist or sniper or Nader or fragger or stoker even fletcher and proxy can abuse the other team respawn ( place that IMO should be sacred to the other team ) and on top of that you are able to reach beyond the ramp ( the only exit point ) by jumping on the bus, so basically the developers applaude spawn camping when the rule should be to avoid that in the first place.

The underground is I think a really flaw in desing because it would be at least a little bit more fair if the atack team could also reach that spot by jumping somewhere but no, you have to take the elevator wich takes for ever you are not fighting for that spot in equal terms you could even go two against one and loose because the other player is waiting for you with so much time to prepare its just really unfair at least it doesn’t alow you to get to the other teams respawn.

The terminal spot it’s one of those I can excuse in some degree but they also lead to one team to the 2 only exist the other team is allow to have, two places that by the way are really easy for the atacking team to camp safely from a distance so it’s not really necessary for the game to give an extra advantage in that part.
I agree with you that in terminal in that stage of the map the importance rellays on who gets the forward spawn and that should be the goal, to hold that forward spawn not to be able to spawncamp the other team. Imagine if in the last part of the stage you could get to the tunnel that is near the defense spawn point and the other team is not able to see you. It would be an unfair advantage.

Also are there more player playing rank or are there more players playing pubs ?
I think it’s the later so I think the game has also got to figure out a way to make the correction that affect public games. In order for the mayority of the player to enjoy the game.
I think it demotivates a new player who is trying to play a nice defense to get killed from behind right from his spawn point just because the atacking team hasn’t been able to stop the defense and are given a place where they can easily get a advantage point.

Also really glad for your response and in any way I think the long jumps should be eliminated but they shouldn’t give this unfair advantage

(S3nf) #7

If anything SD should implent more trickjumps into their maps.
It’s part of the game and a skill that can be learned and also countered.
You are aware theres an alternative route leading to the objective you defend? Cover it.

(LMuerteMan) #8

@S3nf trick jumps should be allowed as long as it doesn’t give you an unfair advantage. Especially when they allow easy spawn camping in some way.
You can have many routes to an objective but if your are given one that’s to easy achieve and gives you so much advantage there is no point in having the other ones.

I repeat trick jumps are not responsible for cheapshots.

But you know lately I’m beginning to think most people on this forums don’t want a fair game just ways to have a game where you can win by cheapshots and calling them skills.

(S3nf) #9

@LMuerteMan Have you, by chance, played SD’s first game W:ET?
It featured a huge amount of trickjumps you would’ve called exploits.
Heck, one of the most well known jumps allowed you to skip the Wall (1st Obj) on Oasis (Terminal). Now that would probably be too much for DB (and todays audience? :slight_smile: )but to me those kind of jumps just make up part of SD games DNA. So yeah thats my pov.
Also I wouldnt describe any of the examples you gave as “cheap” or “exploits”. I stand by “be aware, don’t get outplayed”.

(bontsa) #10

Pretty much what S3nf has been saying here, even when I never played ET that much nor on such level I’d seen/paid attention to movement in it back then.

It falls down on other map design parts that make certain areas, reachable by trickjumps, cheesy. For example you could just as well get on balcony in 1st stage UG as a Defender by sneaking through enemy elevator, still making the spot annoying as hell to deal with. That area needs some revisit in terms of cover and such, not by removing the ability to reach balcony from roof.

(WATAMAN) #11

It not exploit. Its called FLANKING. Its a strat not an unfair advantage.

(LMuerteMan) #12

@S3nf I’ve play a lot w:et is the main reason I love DB. And I remember in the map fuel dump in the first stage allies or atacking team had to 3 ways to get to the axis fist base and also command post. Down a tunnel to the left a big bridge in the middle that you had to repair to make the tank go trough and a little bride to the right that the cover ops could blow up with explosive satchel. But right below you could access by bug, flaw of desing, trick jump what ever you like to call it hurting yourself a little going trough a barbed wire intended to stop that from happening because it made that part of the map super easy to overcome.
Enemy territory did not had devs so some server fixed the issue and some didn’t.
My point is that the map wasn’t enjoyed when one team had an unfair advantage because there was something that was not supposed to be there in the first place.

Also you think it would be Posible for SD to remake some of those maps ? ( of course those have to be adapted to dirty bomb) I would love to play gold rush

And @bontsa if you have to go through all the middle part of the map in the area where you have to face all the atacking team in order to take the elevator and you took the risk and make it you should be awarded with a good vantage position but if contrary to all this you just access it by making a really easy jump and have a better reward that is the definition of a cheap shot ( no effort, big advantage)

(S3nf) #13

@LMuerteMan Nice to see more ol ET players!
I remember that part, but not it ever being fixed by any of the plentyful community created updates.
I mean it didn’t let you achieve much anyway, besides attacking the commandpost and tower. Building and passing the bridge with the tank was still mandatory.
Also some mines behind the barbwire fence put a quick end to someone pushing there.
The much bigger backdoor on Fueldump however, could lead a single Enigneer to win the map.
By taking the left route through the Infantry tunnel straight to the final objective and then performing a jump to the right of the gate leading to the inside of the Fuel Dump depot.
To prevent this from being succesful a Axis engineer needed to spawn back and repair the inner gates right at the start of match, so atleast there would be a warning for planted dynamite at side objective and a time window to react and spawn back.
But to prevent these terrible things from happening the tunnel itself and ofcourse the whole entrance area of it would be guarded and overlooked.
Damn, typing this makes me want more flexibility in maps so hard.

We have Gold Rush in the game already; Bridge. Plus as mentioned in my second reply Oasis as Terminal :slight_smile:
But yeah I’d love to see more maps redone, also maybe more faithful recreations by users which could be themed more freely than just CW. But that would take a SDK and servers to play the maps on.

(LMuerteMan) #14

@S3nf well of course some of the maps resemble the ones in ET because of the objective nature. Maybe is just nostalgia but I would love more resemblance not in the looks of course but in the arquitecture. And the last part of gold rush where you had to follow the truck to the end.

Wow and remember train yard ? I had so much fun getting this trains back and forward.

And more on the subject at hand that part that you mentioned in order to do that you also needed a cover disguised as the enemy to open the doors and the extensive maps made it some what easy to revert that strategy not to mention that by telling the team that some cover had stolen your suit it could also be easily countered. You also had to survive a long way trough the enemy respawn and their territory. As I told @bontsa you can have this advantages if you are willing to take the risk of getting killed and be overwhelmed by the enemy. But in some of DB maps it just gives you a really good advantage but with no consecuence.

I mean it could be ok if I don’t know maybe only phantom could be able to make it to those points ( as the cover ops could) but every merc can.

(S3nf) #15

@LMuerteMan
Thats the point, for what I described, no Covert Ops was needed because you could actually jump over the wall with the door :slight_smile: it was one of the tougher jumps for sure.
Just look what you could do:
Random Trickjump video I looked up. The Fueldump jump I described is at ~4:32, followed up by a second route.
We don’t have jumping as free as in ET, so we shouldn’t begin to neuter DB’s.
The underlying problem imo are the players, not the maps or jumps.
If they don’t learn the routes and jumps they will always be at a loss, there will always be a player who invested more time or plays more serious, who gets the surprise on them.
So what to do? Change the maps so the lesser expereinced don’t get surprised? Hell no…

What’s the consequence in Fuel Dump or Oasis to skip an entire objective stage as a single player - respawn in a couple of seconds, against the possible advantages - winning the game or at least pushing the defenders a objective stage back?
And again, I don’t think there is any spot in DB which is really truthful cheap and more importantly unfair, meaning not able to be countered.

You mean Railgun btw, Trainyard is in DB :wink:
I think Terminal and Bridge are as close to their ET counterparts as possible, given the 15mins timeframe and the general nature of the game.
I have only played a little closed beta but I think Bridge for example used to be much longer which didn’t seem to play out in DB - so theres limitation what you can do to recreate old ET maps I figure. I mean what was the playtime of ET maps? 20mins in comp and up to 30 in public servers? Or are my memorys misleading me here…

(frostyvampire) #16

Those are not exploits, they are features.
Removing them would hurt the game. I actually think there should be more things like this, there are a bunch of invisible walls that need to be removed so you can trickjump to new locations and gain an advantage

Dirty Bomb is a fast paste fps game. We have long jumps and walljumps just for this kind of stuff

(LMuerteMan) #17

So in your opinion the game needs more ways to go into the other team respawn area. I don’t know for me that is really annoying.

I don’t Mind to get to different vantage points that you could only get there by any other means than by a trick jump but it should be equally hard for both teams

I mean isn’t enough advantage to get to the other team area like in chapel but blocking the way behind the other team and getting right next to the respawn ?

(Dysfnal) #18

If you’re in the enemy team spawn, you’re an idiot. Nobody in their right mind would try to take on 5 people who don’t take any damage until they shoot, and even after they do, they take reduced damage for a time

(LMuerteMan) #19

@Dysfnal Man there is a certain amount of time people have immunity in respawn besides it’s beyond the point if the person is idiotic or not if there is someone there it delays the opposing team.

(Dysfnal) #20

Yes I know there’s a time limit on spawn shields, and it hardly delays them, it takes 5 people next to no time to down a single person