Estimated number of optimal builds per class.

(Thanshin) #1

The skill system creates a certain degree of difference among characters of the same class, let’s call them builds (as usual).

My question is how many optimal builds are expected for each class? (there can be thousands of unoptimal ones by simple combination, but we just won’t see them after some months).

Whithout knowing intimately each and every skill it’s a very hard question to answer, but this is no Diablo3 (nor should be) so I suppose there will be a small number.

What do you imagine that number will be? 2 optimal builds per class plus 2 or 3 atypical ones that work partially because of the surprise?

I’d be happy with just 2 optimal if they are radically different and are mixed with 3 or 4 almost-optimal alternatives that are also somehow different.

(Shadowcat) #2

I think there may be more than you expect because SD made each class able to at least partially stand on its own without any skill points put into it, eliminated skill trees, and made most of the skills actually do something unique.

So its more of a case where you are free to pick any of the abilities you like, and avoid the ones you wont use. (unlike skill trees, where you have to invest half of your skills into a tree to unlock the best abilities)

(Thanshin) #3

[QUOTE=Shadowcat;281259]I think there may be more than you expect because:

  • SD made each class able to at least partially stand on its own without any skill points put into it, [/QUOTE]
    That doesn’t change the number of optimal builds. It doesn’t matter how much or how little a bad build cripples you, there will still be a discrete number of optimal builds people will gravitate to.

However you’re right that less skill based effectivity will slow down the speed of the gravitation to optimal builds.

That reduces the number of different optimal builds.

The lack of skill trees allows effects like ubiquitous and unused skills, that reduce variety.

Same with this. If the skills are radically different it’s more probable that they won’t be perfectly balanced, thus reducing the number of builds.

The tree mechanic is a tool specifically created to force difference between builds. Removing them makes you happy about being able to pick any skill, but less happy when everybody else picks exactly the same skills as you, except for one or two.

(Seyu) #4

How do you expect us to come up with builds when don’t even know what all the abilities?
And not having played the game certainly doesn’t help.

(Thanshin) #5

[QUOTE=Seyu;281265]How do you expect us to come up with builds when don’t even know what all the abilities?
And not having played the game certainly doesn’t help.[/QUOTE]

I didn’t ask for builds but for an estimation of their number.

That estimation can be done with little pieces of information like:

  • The total number of skills.
  • The number of skills per build (19?)
  • The structure of skill selection (5lvl1, 5lvl2, 5lvl3, 4lvl4, 1lvl1 ?)
  • The individuality of skills (they do seem very different)
  • The impact of individual skills in gameplay (could a single skill change an engineer from pure defense to rambo solo runner?)
  • The combability of same class skills (are there several skills that combine? e.g.: One that increases the supply bar + one that accelerated the supply bar refill + one that allows donating supply bar pips to teammates.)
  • The combability of cross-class skills (are there skills that combine particularly well with other classes skills? Like a %increase buff in a value which base can be altered by another class skill.)

etc.

(Maawdawg) #6

You are really putting the cart before the horse with this topic. You say you aren’t trying to make builds but you want to speculate on the number of builds you could make without even having the information to make any or having experienced the gameplay at all? There is no way to make reliable estimates with the info we have available to us.

The only answer that really works now is this. Each player will have an optimal build for their playstyle for each class to make that class more functional for them. There will also be builds that are generally regarded as the “best” overall build for each class, which could also be considered optimal in another regard. If a game is balanced well there should be less “cookie cutter” builds but there is no way to eliminate that totally.

This topic is really about 3 weeks too early and seems like speculating for the sake of speculating with results that can only end up as complete guesses.

(tokamak) #7

The mere notion of having optimal builds is a failure in game design. It totally defeats the point of customising.

(Thanshin) #8

The notion of skills that are different but exactly identical in usefulness to a perfect equilibrium is disingenuious.

Obviously the designers will try to balance the variables as much as possible, but perfect balance is extremely hard to reach.

After some thousands of years Go players are still discussing which is the correct point value of the difference between white and black (starting order).

I’m sure you won’t be surprised to see a seldom used skill and another one that almost everybody picks.

(Thanshin) #9

I’m not trying to have a reliable estimate, just an estimate. Which is possible with any amount of information.

For example. Can we agree that it will be equal or lower than all the possible combinations?
That seems simple, but the opposite isn’t, and it’s a very important question for any game. Are we sure that there won’t be a perfect build and everything else will be inferior?

As I make this question someone could have answered, for example: We can be almost sure there will at least be two different builds, because each class has at least two lvl5 skills, both very powerful, very different and exclusive.

I don’t have such information, but that doesn’t mean nobody does.

As the easiest example, what’s the alternative to the lazarus grenade? (it’s not unthinkable that someone here knows that) If it’s something that has nothing to do with reviving downed teammates, we’ll already have two medic builds right there. If I discover that there is no alternative lvl5 skill, I can already worry (a bit) about lack of radically different builds.

(tokamak) #10

[QUOTE=Thanshin;281277]The notion of skills that are different but exactly identical in usefulness to a perfect equilibrium is disingenuious.
[/QUOTE]

That doesn’t make combinations of them ever optimal.

After some thousands of years Go players are still discussing which is the correct point value of the difference between white and black (starting order).

Which is something Brink should aspire to as well.

I’m sure you won’t be surprised to see a seldom used skill and another one that almost everybody picks.

Doesn’t make it any less of a failure.

(Thanshin) #11

[QUOTE=tokamak;281283]That doesn’t make combinations of them ever optimal.
[…]
Which is something Brink should aspire to as well.
[…]
Doesn’t make it any less of a failure.[/QUOTE]

Sorry, I misunderstood you. I agree it would be a failure. One that’s most probably inevitable, but that should only mean they’ll have to really try to minimize.

(tokamak) #12

We’re talking entropy here. An infinite number of builds is the same as no optimal builds. If you can’t avoid optimal builds then at least have as many as possible.

(Thanshin) #13

That’s quite hard though. If you create lots of skills to mix and match, you increase the possibility of someone finding a convoluted combination you didn’t think of, that’s simply brutal and becomes the proverbial IWIN button.

There was an old saying in P&P RPGs about this effect, something like “the more books you own, the stronger your character will be”. It came from the fact that each book included more options and in a combinatory environment, more variety allows a more productive minmaxing.

(Apples) #14

The answer is 42, c’mon guyz think please!

(tokamak) #15

[QUOTE=Thanshin;281305]That’s quite hard though. If you create lots of skills to mix and match, you increase the possibility of someone finding a convoluted combination you didn’t think of, that’s simply brutal and becomes the proverbial IWIN button.
[/QUOTE]

The devs are able to instantly tweak the game. The release date is when the real beta starts.

(Herandar) #16

I estimate zero.

(Weeohhweeohh) #17

one million on the dot

(Auzner) #18

Seriously, what is there to get out of this thread other than to say in 4 months “Ha I guessed the closest to how many jelly beans are in the jar!” Just pick an arbitrary number. Then arbitrarily decide which number is required to deem the game assorted enough. Then if it’s successful/fails claim that “oh they didn’t have at least ___ combos so that’s why.” There are too many guns, mods, and skills to know without playing it for awhile. Guessing a number doesn’t matter because you only get 10 characters anyways. They also let you buy back skill points.

(H0RSE) #19

Seriously, what is there to get out of this thread other than to say in 4 months “Ha I guessed the closest to how many jelly beans are in the jar!” Just pick an arbitrary number.

I gonna pull a “Price is Right” maneuver, and bid 1 dollar.

(Apples) #20

I was quoting H2G2, hope it didnt mess up yar brain too much, I’m sorry sorry sorry

Peace