'eSports-status' in the eyes of players and SD

(adeto) #1

Disclaimer: Realizing that it is in beta, this is mostly a discussion with a purpose of opinions, ideas and a hope of SD sharing some/more of their plans on the topic.

Just interested, and we all know I am not the only one, what the actual plans are for the competitive side of DB from SD’s point of view. You’ve added a competitive mode with rankings but I personally do not consider this ‘competitive gaming or e-Sports status’ by any stretch of my imagination. SD has also chosen to take away private servers in the latest release of the beta which means that the teams who were out there and want to play vs each-other in a private clan/team environment can’t do so at the moment. There was a big boost in people talking about (creating)teams and drafts but those talks have just turned more and more into disappointed players sharing their disbelief in an actual e-Sports stats/competitive scene.

It feels more and more like SD is trying to push a casual ‘League of Legends with guns’ rather than giving us any hints that they have concrete or even basic plans for creating a skill requiring e-Sports environment. That is apart from community managers and some devs saying ‘we really want to see DB be an e-Sports title and will do what we can’.
From the SD games, to my knowledge, only Wolfenstein Enemy Territory(and QW maybe but I am not familiar with that title myself so QW boys out there enlighten us on this) had a serious long term competitive following, and no offense to SD because at the time they provided the community with the tools, but most of that was because of the community did things like creating mods, maps, leagues, hosting servers but from current/later stage discussions on DB we have been hearing more and more of SD wanting to keep things within their own system(some maybe rumors some may not be, either way SD enlighten us). Just as an example if there is no dedicated server support it will immediately mean that major leagues, for example ESL, won’t be able to host their own tournaments/ladders without a massive platform on SD’s side.

In no way am I even talking about any in-game related arguments. For this I don’t even care about merc/loadout/map balance or anything like that so please leave that out of this thread. This is purely for a ‘what does e-Sports platform mean for DB’ in the eyes of DB players and the eyes of SD.

Personally I really enjoy the game, as a game, so don’t mistake this for me hating the game. But having over 10 years of competitive gaming history having touched(both as a player, league admin and team manager) among others, Wolfenstein Enemy Territory, RtCW, Battlefield 3, League of Legends and CSGO and having a pretty good idea of what is required for a solid competitive environment. In at least the last half year it has been feeling more and more like it won’t have what it takes to be my next new serious-effort competitive game.

TL;DR to other competitive players: Do you feel like DB & SD will have what it takes to create an e-Sports environment at this point?

TL;DR to SD: What are you plans for competitive(eSports) DB? Lately this seems as being swept under the rug in my and many other players eyes. It can be far away on your agenda but can you confirm any actual plans for your competitive platform?

In any case, answers or not, I wanted to express my ‘concerns’ about how DB’s development currently feels to me. Or rather the seeming lack or development/information on some of the things a lot of us are looking/hoping for. That said, fingers crossed I guess? :stuck_out_tongue:

(potty1) #2

Until augments can be disabled, competitive game play does not stand a chance. (See COD for an example)

(fubar) #3

Not just augments but the spawntime intervals/offsets that are currently implemented (Please let this be a “casual stopwatch” only thing. I haven’t managed to queue up for “competitive” yet, as there seems to be no player base for it).

(WARHURYEAH) #4

Hey,

I’m a top level TF2 player that has been around in the competitive scene for both CS and TF2 for like, years.

This game has a massive potential for a competitive format as it’s fast paced, skill ceiling seems pretty high and it looks like a game that could age well.

The success for this game becoming an e-sport really relies on the devs and the choices that they make, I’ll be using other games as examples as well naturally.

Following the CSGO route would be the most easiest option, in terms of game modes you would need to either have a similar set up to the bomb defusal set up with one life only (which could work pretty well in DB) or have something similar but with respawn waves.

The other really important thing is the spectator tools, we all remember Brink (rofl) where there wasn’t even first person POV on release. FPS spectating is very difficult as you have to predict where the action is coming from at the right moment, taking a birds eye approach doesn’t really work that well as you don’t see the sick clutches from the player perspective. CSGO is doing a good job on the spec tools in terms of seeing people through walls, clear HP/weapon stats etc. Which is what DB would need to aim for.

In terms of weapons an augments CSGO is the best example again as they have nothing that affects gameplay at all, if DB want the augments in the game they would have to take the LoL or Dota2 approach and allow teams to select certain characters and augments that they will be picking before the game. The issue with this is that they seem to be random with loadouts at the moment which is pretty shit.

Honestly I’ve been playing comp FPS games for years, this game has a huge amount of potential as I said before but a lot of careful decisions have to be made for it to work. Dedicated servers aren’t a problem as CSGO does fine without them in terms of a standard for matchmaking, but there should be an option of sorts for tournaments that won’t have to rely on a server for games (basically need LAN support in some capacity).

Hopefully the correct choices are made as I believe there is room for comp FPS to enter the market, the only real ones available for PC is pretty much CSGO actually.

(adeto) #5

[quote=“vividSculpture;9325”]
Dedicated servers aren’t a problem as CSGO does fine without them in terms of a standard for matchmaking, but there should be an option of sorts for tournaments that won’t have to rely on a server for games (basically need LAN support in some capacity).[/quote]

I don’t know how you define competitive gaming, but CSGO would simply not have the competitive base it has if it wasn’t for dedicated server support. ESEA/CEVO/FACEIT/SL/ESL are the main leagues for it now and wouldn’t be able to host their leagues without dedicated servers. Standard matchmaking is a joke compared to competitive teams. The only ‘eSports’ support Valve gives to CSGO is their sponsorship in 4 tournaments a year, which they host on a separate LAN build of the game, because the normal one doesn’t allow for tournament options(like map VETO/side picking), you need community built plugins for that on dedicated servers. On a side note also, the skill level in MM is a joke compared to real teams in leagues. Your standard Global Elites get rekt by DMG’s with proper strats and teamplay, just proves how bad CSGO’s default matchmaking is.

(TheNinth) #6

The game already has respawn waves, I definitely don’t think one-life would work for a fast paced game like this.
I guess it could be there as a “fun” mode, but definitely not competitive.

(WARHURYEAH) #7

[quote=“adeto;9340”][quote=“vividSculpture;9325”]
Dedicated servers aren’t a problem as CSGO does fine without them in terms of a standard for matchmaking, but there should be an option of sorts for tournaments that won’t have to rely on a server for games (basically need LAN support in some capacity).[/quote]

I don’t know how you define competitive gaming, but CSGO would simply not have the competitive base it has if it wasn’t for dedicated server support. ESEA/CEVO/FACEIT/SL/ESL are the main leagues for it now and wouldn’t be able to host their leagues without dedicated servers. Standard matchmaking is a joke compared to competitive teams. The only ‘eSports’ support Valve gives to CSGO is their sponsorship in 4 tournaments a year, which they host on a separate LAN build of the game, because the normal one doesn’t allow for tournament options(like map VETO/side picking), you need community built plugins for that on dedicated servers. On a side note also, the skill level in MM is a joke compared to real teams in leagues. Your standard Global Elites get rekt by DMG’s with proper strats and teamplay, just proves how bad CSGO’s default matchmaking is.[/quote]

That’s incredibly debateable, with CSS & 1.6 the comp scene was then heavily dependant on third parties creating a comp scene, with CSGO when you play your default experience is competitive matchmaking, they have now made that the default game mode you are exposed to as a standard instead of the times of CSS where you can just end up on various different servers with plugins.

The only joke about their MM is the cheaters and smurfs that’s all, I have never seen anyone in DMG beat people that were global, not only will that never happen because of MM but because the standard at Global is actually pretty decent, players in DMG don’t use smokes as well and various other strats that you’re talking about.

Infact ESEA is probably the most popular but that’s because they’ve been the only real league in NA that’s been worth playing for, and it goes to show how small of a choice they have when they still play ESEA even after the bitcoin fiasco.

Hell, CSGO MM is still very popular in EU, even in Dota2, most still use the standard matchmaking system, there are a few elite leagues lying around like NEL and EEL but most still like playing MM.

Most of this is irrelevant as good matchmaking only exists if there is a huge player base and alternative options for players.

(fubar) #8

No, the real joke here is that you associate match making with competitive gaming. It’s a fucking pub server that tries to mimic league settings is all. It’s still the same old casual players that have never been any good at the game. There’s no difference from jumping on any listed pub server in 1.6 or cs:s to MM in CS:GO. It’s literally the same thing.

Any sort of Matchmaking system will never be the “competitive” scene behind any game, period. It isn’t in Dota, it isn’t in LoL, it never was in SC:BW or SC2, nor was it ever in QL or CS:GO. It’s merely another pub where the actual teams and pros stay away from because it’s a pointless feature that is only really there to make pub scrubs feel better about themselves. Loel dat ELO tho.

(adeto) #9

[quote=“vividSculpture;9391”]
That’s incredibly debateable, with CSS & 1.6 the comp scene was then heavily dependant on third parties creating a comp scene, with CSGO when you play your default experience is competitive matchmaking, they have now made that the default game mode you are exposed to as a standard instead of the times of CSS where you can just end up on various different servers with plugins.

The only joke about their MM is the cheaters and smurfs that’s all, I have never seen anyone in DMG beat people that were global, not only will that never happen because of MM but because the standard at Global is actually pretty decent, players in DMG don’t use smokes as well and various other strats that you’re talking about.

Infact ESEA is probably the most popular but that’s because they’ve been the only real league in NA that’s been worth playing for, and it goes to show how small of a choice they have when they still play ESEA even after the bitcoin fiasco.

Hell, CSGO MM is still very popular in EU, even in Dota2, most still use the standard matchmaking system, there are a few elite leagues lying around like NEL and EEL but most still like playing MM.

Most of this is irrelevant as good matchmaking only exists if there is a huge player base and alternative options for players. [/quote]

I’m not disagreeing that MM is a good entry into some degree of competitive gaming for complete newbies to eSports, but it’s still nothing more than a server with competitive settings. That doesn’t make it an actual competitive environment. Like Fubar also said, those MM systems are generally avoided by top and semi top teams because it doesn’t represent the actual competitive skill cap in any way (there are 12 year old rambo’s who only play SWAG-7 and P90 and have GE and there are people who only play ESEA and have sick rankings there but have a MGE/DMG because they play ‘competitive MM’ with their friends for fun and trolling). Top players might like playing standard matchmaking but this is not to increase their skill level.

The fact that ESEA is able to make people PAY for a better matchmaking servers than Valve’s just proves that so much. If CSGO’s MM was in any way representable of actual team based competitive gaming why would services like ESEA still increase yearly profit and prizepurses every season?

I personally have no clue about DotA’s MM system, but a MM system like LoL’s is different from a system like Valves because it offers a proper platform that allows teams to properly set up matches with eachother. CSGO’s does not, you can’t directly invite/challenge a team on their platform which makes it completely useless as a serious practice environment. Dedicated server support is not necessarily a must, as long as there is a proper platform in place that allows team to practice on their own terms amongst eachother. If CSGO allowed me to ‘temporarily’ use a server for my team against a team that I know will seriously practice against me it wouldn’t be a problem.

(appreciativeBuster) #10

dbPRO mod D:

(Fana) #11

Matchmaking is by definition competitive play. It isn’t, however, organized competitive play, which is what most people think of when they use the term “competitive”. Matchmaking is a great way to funnel new players into competitive play, potentially pushing them into organized play and fostering a solid competitive playerbase overall.

As has already been noted previously in this thread, the game is currently unfit for organized play due to issues with the loadout system etc., but hopefully this will be fixed in the near future.

(adeto) #12

[quote=“Fana;10486”]Matchmaking is by definition competitive play. It isn’t, however, organized competitive play, which is what most people think of when they use the term “competitive”. Matchmaking is a great way to funnel new players into competitive play, potentially pushing them into organized play and fostering a solid competitive playerbase overall.

As has already been noted previously in this thread, the game is currently unfit for organized play due to issues with the loadout system etc., but hopefully this will be fixed in the near future.[/quote]

Agree with first part, and also with 2nd part. But the loadout/balance/mercs system doesn’t even matter if the actual platform for organized competitive play has no shape of form whatsoever. which is why I said in OP that this thread was more about what people see in terms of platform/services rather than gameplay.

(Fana) #13

They seem to be planning on re-introducing passworded servers in the near future. We’ve also seen that they plan on adding drafting and a league/season structure in June. How this will influence organized play is unsure at the moment, so until there is some official clarification we can only speculate as to what their intentions are. It would be nice to get some meaningful answers from SD/Nexon in this regard, rather than their previous non-commital “would be nice” type of answers.

(ScarZy) #14

I can’t find anywhere when the official release is meant to go ahead, and know there must be one that SD are working to, as is expected for any glorified software development piece. There are still a great many things that seem to need fixing for true competitive play and cannot agree with adeto enough when he says that the core functionality has to exist to allow for competitive play. I suppose, as Drake once said, the “started from the bottom now we’re here” approach is the method that SD is attempting to carry out, with competitive play sadly an afterthought. But where exactly is “here”? The game is a Boeing 777 away form being playable in any competitive league regardless of whether or not you add a button or a few passworded servers, or cvar locks.

However, for how long was ET the same? ET survived and flourished in spite of the limitations created in the original design which focused primarily on public play. Yet there were mods made eventually, rules and leagues defined, and the game even had another LAN in 2015 (12 years after release). The key to this is allowing for competitive play to be crafted from the original product with aid of the community. The current limitations to disregard competitive initiative for the game (there are 0 responses from SD in this thread at time of writing), and the lack of ability for the community themselves to make additions and advancements to DB, could crush any potential for competitive play. It should be added that these additions to the game often do not come from the best players themselves, but people that are interested in the competitive game in a more creative way. Such users should not be shunned and left unable to improve, but instead encouraged.

Another aspect that should be considered and discussed is the financial evaluations of DB. We should all not be disillusioned by the reality that this game has to be a success for SD. ETQW and Brink were flops, W:ET was a free expansion. Additionally, this changes their target audience away from the handful of competitive gamers. They will not be given priority. That said, I think a healthy competitive scene is the best way to longevity and satisfaction in a FPS game.

As long as progress is made, I will keep my fingers crossed. If enjoyment was had from W:ET or RTCW I think it is time to purchase some mercs, and help support SD.

(Nail) #15

the lack of response from SD could be due to this being Nexon’s forum not Splash Damage’s

iirc, the only way the first W:ET mods came about was SD giving Bani and Ryan access to the source

(quickMicrowave) #16

its going to be a fun pubbing game, but it will not make waves (or splashes) in a true competitive sense.

competitive match making != what most consider FPS competitive play.

competitive in my mind = lans, tournaments, clanbase cups, etc.

signed,
the real nail

(adeto) #17

[quote=“quickMicrowave;15986”]its going to be a fun pubbing game, but it will not make waves (or splashes) in a true competitive sense.

competitive match making != what most consider FPS competitive play.

competitive in my mind = lans, tournaments, clanbase cups, etc.

signed,
the real nail[/quote]

clanbase cups, what year are you living in? cb died a while ago

(DeathScythe) #18

In my humble opinion, the best way for this game to become relevant is for SD to give us the possibility to create private servers and more importantly to release a tool that would allow for the community to change/mod game settings ranging from changing spawn locations, respawn timers, control over perks/loadouts, plant timers, etc. The reason being is that the competitive community is able to make changes at a much faster pace than the developers would.