Do we really need aimpunch?

(Iksuda_Qataya) #301

Perhaps you should improve your situational awareness instead of complaining about getting caught with your pants around your ankles.

(Ghosthree3) #302

Perhaps a competitive shooter shouldn’t be partially based around RNG.

(watsyurdeal) #303

People seem to not understand that in a game based around Attacker and Defender, that Defenders have the advantage because all they have do is sit near the objective. Attackers have to sprint and get to where they need to be quickly, so getting caught with your pants down, happens ALL the time.

Saying people need to adapt to it is blissfully being ignorant to the fact that Defenders don’t need any more advantages in term of having the first shot. They have the sight lines, the first hit, always grouped together, and so on. They don’t need to be able to ruin the Attacker’s accuracy just because they have the first shot the vast majority of the time.

(_retired_) #304

[quote=“Ghosthree3;65598”]My problem with what you said is you suggested - not even suggested, out right stated - that people want it gone because they want the game to be easier and that they were freaks.[/quote]I’m freak too, you know. You can call me chaosweirdo:smiley:
I added smiley there to so nobody gets offended if that ruins your day.

[quote=“Ghosthree3;65598”]You told people to adapt to a random element, which cannot be adapted to.[/quote]You can and that’s my whole point!
You go for the first shots and seek cover whenever possible, let alone pair up with someone to go shooting. It just favours different kind of gameplay. Never said it’s then “easier” if you removed it.

[quote=“Ghosthree3;65598”]You suggested that it’s a good thing that getting crossfired eliminates a players chance at winning a battle rather than simply reducing it from taking double damage thereby making defense overpowered.[/quote]It might be a good thing. isn’t crossfire something you should ultimately evade and also something you should concentrate into with your team?
I said that I’m surprised so many Dirty Bomb players want that one since because how the game currently plays out and as what kind of game I see it. I’m bit bewildered about people.

For me it sounds wanting more controlled enviroment.

[quote=“Ghosthree3;65598”]You clearly have no competitive experience, or rather, no competitive experience that’s worth anything. Yet you say these things like they are fact. It’s bad, and you should feel bad.[/quote]Well, I just skip over this as you are clearly just steaming especially “worth anything” part.
Claiming authority won’t do much good with me. Why I would feel bad about FACTS I lay out?

[quote=“Ghosthree3;65598”][Lold.[/quote]Good that you laugh. Relax.

[quote=“Ghosthree3;65598”]Some people should learn how the game works.[/quote]Some people should learn that there are also other opinions/options that might be as right as their own.
The perfect game for you might not be perfect game for all. And there are more skills than just getting people to your crosshairs you know.

[quote=“Watsyurdeal”]Watch that, and explain to me why that’s fair. When someone is shooting you from behind, they already are damaging you, they’re already in a blindspot that you have to turn around and engage them to deal with, why should they ruin a fire fight with another player? Why should they not only rob you of your life but your accuracy too?[/quote]I shoot someone to save my buddy’s life at the process. Numbers do matter and not only crosshaired invidual shooting grouping without any outside effects.
Because it’s TEAM based game rather than 1on1 firefight game. Or that’s how I see it why aimpunch is there and see it as contributing factor but I’m not saying it should ultimately be like that. IF you as community give such feedback maybe it is changed.

It’s design choice. I’m not even really against idea of removing it, I’m just saying it favours different kind of gameplay and I can see it’s one of the dividing issues between players that are “controlfreaks” and “chaosweirdos”.

It’s the same as with board games. I never liked Chess since the only random factor in it every time is the other player.

"[quote=“Watsyurdeal;65604”]Saying people need to adapt to it is blissfully being ignorant to the fact that Defenders don’t need any more advantages in term of having the first shot. They have the sight lines, the first hit, always grouped together, and so on. They don’t need to be able to ruin the Attacker’s accuracy just because they have the first shot the vast majority of the time.[/quote]That is something to be considered. Then gain if you don’t have aimpunch or it’s effect is minimal your chance of covering/suppressing fire without killing defenders outright (who have medics on hand) is also minimal and they can cut your crew down without problems even when you are firing at them.

(watsyurdeal) #305

You’re right, it is a team based game, but the the fights in the game are clearly not meant to be like CoD or Counter Strike where you have about 0.25 max to react to things, the fights are way longer. And therefore come down to 1v1s more than team vs team mashups.

If you save someone’s life, it should be purely because you damaged them, not because you fucked over their would be killer by throwing off their aim.

Removing aim punch would be more in line with the feel that they are trying to go for, which is in fact the old school shooter. The no iron sight stationary bs that Counter Strike started, fast paced and gets your adrenaline going. If they want to balance Snipers, there are better ways to do it, because if that’s why it exists, IT’S FAILING MISERABLY.

Watch at 3:09

Now obviously you’d say, just increase the aim punch then, but the thing is that affects EVERYONE and we just get the same scenario we had with Phantom, changing an aspect globally to nerf one merc.

Honestly, I can’t see a reason to have aim punch in this type of game, in a shooter like Counter Strike, it makes sense, in this game however, it simply doesn’t.

(Ghosthree3) #306

[quote=“crabbyDimension;65629”]You can and that’s my whole point!
You go for the first shots and seek cover whenever possible, let alone pair up with someone to go shooting. It just favours different kind of gameplay. Never said it’s then “easier” if you removed it.[/quote]
Not when you’re on attack. Defense has that luxury, they get to sit and wait and get the first shot or fall back to cover. Attack is unable to do that.

[quote=“crabbyDimension;65629”]It might be a good thing. isn’t crossfire something you should ultimately evade and also something you should concentrate into with your team?
I said that I’m surprised so many Dirty Bomb players want that one since because how the game currently plays out and as what kind of game I see it. I’m bit bewildered about people.[/quote]
Crossfire cannot be avoided against a team playing properly. You eventually have to walk into it, how is the fact that you are being shot by multiple opponents not enough that you demand an even larger disadvantage for the person being shot.

(MiC) #307

Have you ever played Enemy Territory? that’s aimpunch! and we didn’t have problems with it for over 10 years…

(Ghosthree3) #308

Since you played ET you should know that the aimpunch there was visual only and did not throw off bullets. Therefore with proper training you could learn to ignore the view kick and keep sending the bullets where they should be going. This is not the case here. Here the bullets get thrown off course with the camera.

(MiC) #309

I don’t have that much of a problem here either, maybe it’s just me

(Amerika) #310

Proper training…or using a 3rd party crosshair/dot on your screen. I don’t like aimpunch but lets not try to sell that visual aimpunch is a better alternative to random aimpunch. It can be easily gotten around (depending on how it’s implemented).

I’d prefer it be entirely gone. But I’d definitely prefer light handed random aimpunch over not random since many people would simply use a 3rd party program or put a dot on their screen which would forge a bigger gap between the players who know to do that and the players who do not know.

(srswizard) #311

Awareness plays no role in this, like at all.
It just shows that most of these pro-aimpunch people have no experience of competitive play, where btw, people are aware of enemy positions, almost all of the time.
You are clearly commenting on this, while having only experience of playing on random public servers.

You also fail to take latency into account.
Pit a player with 40ms ping against a player with 100+ms ping, and reconsider your stance on the issue.
This is a common scenario in the cups, btw.
The 40ms player would generally have a big advantage, even if aimpunch wasn’t a thing, but since it is a thing… should the 40ms player always get a freebie, by throwing off the aim of the opponent, before he can react?
Please correct me if I’m wrong with this latency stuff.

(Amerika) #312

I could write a white paper on latency and how it works in different games with different techs powering ways to minimize the impact it has on gameplay and the results in each game. But I’d simply get multiple people disagreeing with me because, “high ping bad, low ping good” with many of them insisting that people play with a high ping in DB because it gives them an advantage (yeah, seriously).

But that’s off-topic and a whole other can of worms.

(Ghosthree3) #313

I’m not saying it is. Just that it was not the same in ET as it is in DB and therefore ET should not be brought up as a reason why it’s ok.

I think we can all safely say we used to blutack back in the day.

(Gi.Am) #314

@Ardez Yeah I thought so aswell.

Anyways since I’m pro aimpunch let me retort, since I have a hard time buying some of the arguments.

Attackers vs Defense.
Ok my problem with this is, that the whole point of stopwatch is to make a inherently asymetrical game (asymetrical maps, team compositions, game tasks) fair and symetrical by having the teams play both sides. Therefore whatever advantage aimpunch might or might not give, is void. Since on round 2 the other site gets the same advantage. If we were talking objective mode I’d could see the point, but that mode is weighted for attackers anyways because of asymetrical spawns.

The other thing about it is: If aimpunch gives defenders an advantage, it would mean that defense on stopwatch is easier. Two consequences A. equally skilled teams would fullhold each other on defense. B. a less skilled team should be able to slowdown or even full hold a better team on defense aswell.

Yet if memory serves right most matches in dirtycups, had both sides set times or atleast procress past the first objectives. If one team was stronger not only did they fullhold the weaker one but also afterwards rushing the objective in record time. Indicating that the game as a whole (atleast on the mode it is balanced for) isn’t biased for defenders.

Or at the very least, whatever positive effect aimpunch might give to the defenders, is offset by something that that gives advantages to the attackers.

Aimpunch is random and therefore unskilled.
2 problems with that IMO.
One, aimpunch has a purpose (3 per DEVs) , the moment you can, through repetition, negate the effect of aimpunch, it can’t do the intended job anymore.

Two, while aimpunch can’t be overcome, it can be avoided. Moving in a way and positioning yourself so that one avoids crossfire or can reset their aim after being hit, is a skill on its own.
Aimpunch isn’t taking away skill, it is shifting skill.
It is shifting what is important in a firefight away from pure aiming (and stronger weapon/higher HP pool) towards positioning and movement.

To add to that, id like to point out that this, is a gradual shift, depending on how aimpunch is calibrated. Because atleast in my experience in the current iteration of it, tracking aim and scoring headshots, is still the deciding factor in firefights, landing the first shot doesn’t bring you far (unless you got a MOA or a shotgun).

There is no denying that when they introduced the new variable it was too strong and the shift away from aiming too much. But as long as it is tweaked well, atleast in my opinion aimpunch is solving balancing problems, while adding to the overall gameplay of the game.

Btw. Considering that Aimpunch has been in DB for most of its time, makes it a core part of the gameplay. Not a new fangled addon the devs bolted on, to quickfix some perceived problem. That is now ruining what this game was.

(Ghosthree3) #315

[quote=“Gi.Am;65681”]Attackers vs Defense.
Ok my problem with this is, that the whole point of stopwatch is to make a inherently asymetrical game (asymetrical maps, team compositions, game tasks) fair and symetrical by having the teams play both sides. Therefore whatever advantage aimpunch might or might not give, is void. Since on round 2 the other site gets the same advantage. If we were talking objective mode I’d could see the point, but that mode is weighted for attackers anyways because of asymetrical spawns.[/quote]
Both teams have a fair and symmetrical experience in stopwatch because they play both sides yes. But both sides do not, which isn’t necessarily a good thing. I mean, you could design the maps so that defense can almost never lose due to positional advantage and it would be a fair and symmetrical experience for both teams.

The point is not about making it fair for both teams but rather making both sides equally, or as close to equal as possible, able to win their round. Aimpunch is a huge advantage for defenders when added to the fact they get to position and wait the clock out and attackers do not. This does not make it fair for both sides, it is an unnecessary advantage that does nothing but piss high level players off. Others too, probably.

As I stated in a post previously, against a good team crossfires and ready enemies are pretty much unavoidable. So you can’t really just say “well just play around it and don’t get shot at lol”.

I would even be down for putting more recoil into the game over aim punch. Not the shitty recoil CS has where the bullets don’t stick to the crosshair, just a bigger crosshair kick.

(Resine) #316

[quote=“Gi.Am;65681”]@Ardez Yeah I thought so aswell.
Two, while aimpunch can’t be overcome, it can be avoided. Moving in a way and positioning yourself so that one avoids crossfire or can reset their aim after being hit, is a skill on its own.
Aimpunch isn’t taking away skill, it is shifting skill.
It is shifting what is important in a firefight away from pure aiming (and stronger weapon/higher HP pool) towards positioning and movement.
[/quote]

You don’t need some broken to the core mechanic like an aim-punch, to get advantages from the movement and positioning.
At this very moment there are 2 things that annoys me in DB, one is the meta of the mercs in the competitive, mostly 2-4 mercs are used exclusively and the Aim-punch obviously.

I always go for the head, so while i go for the enemy’s head and i do get shot either from that particular enemy, or his team-mate my cross goes of the target, i correct it asap, but then there is next shoot, and my cross flight over again.
What Aim-punch does for me, it screws my aim completely, since i cannot predict when my opponent is going to hit me, i cannot counter it without losing a few bullets here and there.
Not to mention that i cannot rely on my muscle memory while my opponent goes from the strafing to the crouching since my cross will act differently depending on the amount of hits i received.
I don’t care how small or how big the change is, i hate this randomness, something i cannot control.

(CoffeeHero) #317

Needs to go! I agree with the mentality that if you land the first shot that is your reward. It doesn’t need to be rewarded twice. Let aim be the decider.

(Gi.Am) #318

@Ghosthree3 Actually I’m pretty sure you don’t want equal sides. Because if the sides where as close to equal as possible, statistical 50% of the games would be won on the defenders side (full hold at one of the objectives). What we want atleast in a game like DB is a bias towards the attackers, because actual finishing all 2/3 objectives and racing for the faster completition time, is alot more exciting. Or in other words the game should be biased for attackers to ensure that the game is won on the attacker side.

The big question is has DB that bias or not, unfortunaly without a look into echo stats thats hard to answer. However looking at the endscreens of several dirtycups matches does indicate that teams more often manage to clear all objectives than they get full holded (or one side clears and fullholds if they are stronger).

The thing is, while defenders have an advantage in the fights (defense is easier than offence, given the same means), everytime they do loose a fight, the attackers can progress. And infact as soon as the attackers get a plant going, they become the defenders.
While the defenders have to attack under a strong timelimit.

In the defenders worst case it only takes 2/3 lost firefights to loose the map (+ 2-3 fights for defuse but they don’t have the positional advantage in those).

As far as more recoil goes instead of aimpunch, that would accomplish not much. Aimpunch gives players a tool (besides pure dps), to influence the outcome of a fight, as long as he is able to hit the target. Only thing that increasing recoil does, is making it harder to land follow up shots.

It would from a skill ceiling point of view, make more sense to only have aimpunch when you land headshots instead of more recoil. While I would opose that idea aswell since I think headshots are rewarded more than enough in this game. It would allow aimpunch to do the intended job, while removing the perceived unfairness of “that guy wins even tho I have the better aim”.

(Ghosthree3) #319

Then why are you for something that favours the defenders so much?

[quote=“Gi.Am;65741”]The thing is, while defenders have an advantage in the fights (defense is easier than offence, given the same means), everytime they do loose a fight, the attackers can progress. And infact as soon as the attackers get a plant going, they become the defenders.
While the defenders have to attack under a strong timelimit.[/quote]
Yes, they get to progress and plant. Then the defenders get 2 full spawn waves - 3 if the timings match up - to try wipe the attackers, defuse and reset everything back to how it was. Extremely defender favoured.

(AlBundy) #320

if we are going realism lol, why don’t we get revives in RL…i mean it’s realistic to stay dead when you get riddled with bullets…but i’ve never heard of a case where some one can be revived like 57 times within 10 minutes