Also, more or less feeling that the soldier can be used by a player that maybe isn’t that great and it can help him player better. Though, if used by a phenomenal player it definitely won’t go unnoticed. So If you maybe up the head shot damage of a medic it puts him on even ground with everyone if your capable of aiming better.
IMO new weapon!
here is an option, ditch the covert class and have the soldier class be the guy that has a choice between RL, GL, Sniper rifle. Not going to ever happen, but that is the way to go. With the way the spawn times / waves issues are right now this would not work though.
Another option would be just make the soldiers weapon somewhat comparable in dmg to the other classes. I know everyone is gonna say well who the hell is gonna use him then?? he will still have a very important role leading into a choke point with his concussion and flash nades. Not to mention he has two automatic weapons with large clip sizes.
[QUOTE=Evil-Doer;436256]I’m pretty much with you here Humate 
- I’m kind of feeling just more head damage at this point. What you thinking?
Also, more or less feeling that the soldier can be used by a player that maybe isn’t that great and it can help him player better. Though, if used by a phenomenal player it definitely won’t go unnoticed. So If you maybe up the head shot damage of a medic it puts him on even ground with everyone if your capable of aiming better.
May not be the direction we all want to go, but kind of my thoughts.[/QUOTE]
I think reducing the body shot damage on soldier is a pretty good solution.
the AR from med 3/4 would have to be comparable to medic 1 and 2 otherwise nobody would use medic 1 and 2.
Better gun for reduced healing ability? That is how it’s going to end up I think.
the AR from med 3/4 would have to be comparable to medic 1 and 2 otherwise nobody would use medic 1 and 2.
If theres a combat focused medic, with less healing capabilities - I imagine the other two medic characters will be neglected.
Sure but keep in mind, ETQW infantry only was only 4v4. It was a very niche mode. The amount that ETQW was scaled down to make 4v4 infantry playable didn’t leave much else besides medic, objective and sniper. Not really a fair comparison IMHO.
And you kinda made my point for me about the pubs… Of course everyone played whatever they wanted, hence the lack of medics on pubs. I never once played an ETQW pub and thought, “there are too many medics”. It was never a problem in reality.
Is the point of nerfing medics to curb rambo medics on pubs or in comp?
[QUOTE=BMXer;436282] It was never a problem in reality.
Is the point of nerfing medics to curb rambo medics on pubs or in comp?[/QUOTE]
5v5 infantry was also pretty common as well. The main thing that bothered me though is that the other classes lost so much worth outside of the vehicle game, where in medics became the dominant class. The medic itself was rarely played in a very supportive manner as well, where in it made more sense to have the soldier be more appealing as the fragging class because he had no self-sustain. Every class should really have the same appeal that rambo medic had in terms of killing efficiency. Infantry comp is the prime example I used as it is most comparable to DB’s infantry only situation and it involved players attempting to use the most efficient meta-game which ended up as stacking medics.
Here’s a question for everyone who wants medics like they were in the past. If medic could only heal/revive teammates, but had the same weapon as everyone else would people play it?? What I am wondering is if anyone actually cares about the medic functioning as a team class at all. I would totally be down for medic to function like that personally because it would make more sense than nerfing the medic in all areas, which I don’t agree with. It’s purely a debate over the simple math of balance for the medic class, where in a lot of it get’s over shadowed by people just wanting to be able to kill everyone as medic because that’s how it worked before even if it’s obviously making the class stronger than every other and catering to non-team play styles.
There was 1 season of NA 5v5 that I remember (we won). None in euro land that I remember… could be wrong. Anyway… yea, infantry only ETQW made most classes pointless. Making other class more useful seems like a better option to me personally.
TBH, I think removing self healing is a great idea. Self healing is great but I would personally MUCH rather work with another medic.
I don’t want them to be the weakest class (I play Medic myself after all), I just don’t want them to be the strongest, as they were in ET. I want the RTCW Medic back, who started with little ammo and needed a friendly Lt. to keep him going.
And giving him a better gun so his ego isn’t bruised when a Soldier kills him won’t address any of those things.
What we need to do is make him more viable as a Medic:-
[ul]
[li]Improve the revive shield.
[/li][li]Make reviving quicker. In RTCW you didn’t need to crouch / stop to do a revive, meaning you could do a “drive-by” revive picking up several team-mates in the time it takes to revive 1 in DB.
[/li][li]Handing out a Med pack to an already healthy team-mate gives him a 10% HP boost, so you can “buff” your team-mates at spawn ala Brink.
[/li][li]A Medic giving himself a pack boosts his HP to 120, but it goes back down to 100 as soon as he shoots his gun, meaning he can revive under fire better, but not abuse the health boost to make himself better in combat.
[/li][/ul]
Whatever, the Medic needs to be a better Medic to make him more attractive, not a better soldier.
I’m fundamentally not in favour of this because it means you need 2 medics for either to be viable. No other class requires another of it’s kind. We’d probably end up with no Medics at all (on pubs certainly).
[QUOTE=Kendle;436308]
I’m fundamentally not in favour of this because it means you need 2 medics for either to be viable. No other class requires another of it’s kind. We’d probably end up with no Medics at all (on pubs certainly).[/QUOTE]
Kendle how does a medic become unviable when it can’t self heal? No other class can self heal either. If a medic couldn’t self heal I doubt you would see them wandering around alone, though sure two of them would work- but that’s not necessarily how you would have to play. I think that a weaker medic with good self healing and a medic with a strong weapon that can’t self heal would be two good choices for medic loadouts in DB. One appeals more to support players, while the other is all about shooting and reviving/healing teammates after those kills. The whole thing with medic being a bad class if it can’t self heal doesn’t make sense to me considering it’s the only one that can do it in the first place.
One of the things a Medic can do is drop a Med pack, just like one of the things a F/Ops can do is drop an ammo pack. Both can pick up the packs they drop, i.e. do to themselves what they can do to others. If the Medic could no longer self-heal he loses an ability that the F/Ops retains (unless you’re also suggesting F/Ops can only get ammo from another F/Ops, not re-supply themselves?).
An Engineer can carry out his duties without needing another Engineer. A Solider can do his thing without needing another Soldier. A non-self-healing Medic can only do half a job, he can only do his thing to his team-mates, he no longer effectively considers himself a member of his own team.
We’re complaining about Medics being too weak, or not attractive enough as a class choice, how does taking away one of their innate abilities make them more attractive?
As for different Medic loadouts? If they’re too different then you effectively have 6 classes instead of 5, putting pressure on all of them to be better than they are or else face not being used. I’d rather have 1 good Medic than have to choose between 2 “not so good but for different reasons” Medics.
[QUOTE=Kendle;436310]One of the things a Medic can do is drop a Med pack, just like one of the things a F/Ops can do is drop an ammo pack. Both can pick up the packs they drop, i.e. do to themselves what they can do to others. If the Medic could no longer self-heal he loses an ability that the F/Ops retains (unless you’re also suggesting F/Ops can only get ammo from another F/Ops, not re-supply themselves?).
[/QUOTE]
FOPS is really the only other class that provides an ability like that. Giving ammo to yourself and self healing are very different abilities though. If people were actually running out of ammo constantly, maybe the FOPS self-ammo giving would be comparable. I don’t see any difference between a medic needing another medic to heal them as much as any other class needs a medic to heal them or a fops to give them ammo. Class interdependency is what team games are all about. I’d like a middle-ground loadout for medic as well to be honest, but I think the other options would be good variations of the class also. As it stands currently the medic has an SMG, another medic will have a shotgun, and perhaps another will have a rifle. I still think that none of those will fit the profile we are probably looking for, however it should be taken into account that classes function under a balance system where in any advantage must result in disadvantage. Getting people to play a class is going to differ between people though. If your all about highly aggressive fragging you probably won’t play medic, but a more 1v1 rambo style has already been proven to work well enough. Medic still doesn’t bring a big enough feeling of importance to the team for a lot of reasons (fast TTK, short spawn waves, medpacks not giving base hp to teammates, slow revives, etc). Medic would indeed be too strong if both areas of gun and ability play were even, though variations of each I think would be the best way we could go about it. Each loadout appeasing the style of different players. In the end if someone just wants to frag as a medic, I don’t think they are doing their team much good- and if it is highly successful then other classes become pointless.
+1 to Kendle, that was the one thing I would’ve criticized in Strychzilla’s post if I had had time.
Basically the classes need to really represent themselves. DB is currently taking sort of the route where everyone is happy, no griefing is possible, every class can survive really well without any team mates. But this way the classes just melt into eachother. The classes should be different, they should have powerful class abilities, and flavor could be added to that by having class-restricted weapons.
I also tend to think that 4 classes would be better. By having less classes, we could actually go slightly crazier with the different mercs, they wouldn’t constantly overlap with other mercs from other classes. With five classes with different mercs it’ll be a nightmare to balance. And the covert is just so odd class. Why have a separate class when basically his defining feature as a class is one weapon, sniper rifle. And I’m just cringing every time I think about the fate of the covert in comp, because his main support feature is something that apparently will be surely banned. The whole class doesn’t just make sense to me, in the current game at least.
There needs to be some real additions or mixing done with the class features and how they fit eachother, and most importantly things need to be simple. Especially if covert is staying. Otherwise we will not get that feeling of teamwork in the game.
Inferno, you should try paragraphs
In the context of complaining about Medics being not an attractive enough class to play anymore, how does taking away one of their abilities make them more attractive? That’s what I’m trying to get at here.
If Medics are no longer an attractive class then let’s make them more useful, not less.
The more I think about it the more I like the idea of self-packing giving the Medic a health advantage, but one which they lose when they fire their gun, so they can go about their duties (packing / reviving) with greater ease without becoming the de-facto soldier once again.
This would also make the Medic the best doc-run class, he’d have the Soldier’s health but not be hindered by the Soldier’s slower movement speed.
[QUOTE=Maca;436320]+1 to Kendle, that was the one thing I would’ve criticized in Strychzilla’s post if I had had time.
Basically the classes need to really represent themselves. DB is currently taking sort of the route where everyone is happy, no griefing is possible, every class can survive really well without any team mates. But this way the classes just melt into eachother. The classes should be different, they should have powerful class abilities, and flavor could be added to that by having different weapons.
I also tend to think that 4 classes would be better. By having less classes, we could actually go slightly crazier with the different mercs, they wouldn’t constantly overlap with other mercs from other classes. And the covert is just so odd class. Why have a separate class when basically his defining feature as a class is one weapon, sniper rifle. And I’m just cringing every time I think about the fate of the covert in comp, because his main support feature is something that apparently will be surely banned. The whole class doesn’t just make sense to me, in the current game at least.
There needs to be some real additions or mixing done with the class features and how they fit eachother, and most importantly things need to be simple, Otherwise we will not get that feeling of teamwork in the game.[/QUOTE]
We’re quite regularly, and passionately, having that same debate here. I think our gut tells us that we should be making the classes more powerful and unique so that they stand out, more in the mould of characters and their roles in a MOBA game, or perhaps TF2’s classes.
That feeling is always at odds with our desire to also please our existing fan base from our previous games, whom we believe (based on our own experiences and from some feedback here) don’t really want that great a distinction between classes, but rather prefer all classes to be good ‘fraggers’ with just a variety of unique utility abilities added to each.
It’s a very difficult line to be walking I can tell you
How are the Mercs going to be made available? If it’s a case of 1 Merc is free but the others have to be paid for, apart from the obvious pay-2-win implications SD would obviously have less scope to make money if the game has less classes.
As there’s actually no “Covert Op” style objectives in DB at the moment, having Sniper as one of the Soldier Mercs does make sense however, I just wonder how that fits SD’s plans to make money from the game?