DIRTY BOMB UPDATE: Version 17437

(MrFunkyFunk) #141

I agree with this, players shouldn’t be forced.

(tokamak) #142

It does feel like a cop out yeah. I know it’s scary to have one superior combat class in a game where everyone wants to excel at shooting but I think it’s worth it if the roles become more defined.

(Kendle) #143

I agree with that, but in general people will do undesirable things if they can (Murphy’s Law: if it can go wrong it will go wrong), so short of positive incentives some form of enforcement is the next best thing. If the Solider had a RPG I’d certainly want C4 to go back to the Engie, but until he does …

No argument on any of that! :slight_smile:

Can’t agree with this however. If every class was as combat efficient as every other class everyone would play the one that could also heal itself, and you’re back to pubs full of Medics, and comp teams heavily stacked with Medics. I’m glad DB have broken the mold on this point, and hope it remains so. It’s an objective based team game, not a series of duels that get added up at the end.

It’s not a 5-v-5 game, it’s currently 8-v-8 and hopefully when it goes live it’ll be 10-v-10 or 12-v-12 so proper community servers can develop. To base the number or composition of classes on how the comp scene wants to play the game would be foolish and short-sighted. If comp wants to drop a class or 2 they can, but the game should and must be developed for the pub scene first and foremost, and I say that as someone who’s always played matches in every game I’ve ever played.

(Bangtastic) #144

i think it doesnt matter if its made for 8v8 or 5v5. As long as the gameplay is good and the game flows fluently, i dont see there a problem. When it comes to objectives, I dont know what SD has planned as a next step but i would like to see, objectives for more than one class only. (one class only objectives only for engineer imo)

That you get an Idea what i mean: For instance, Fops, Covert, Soldier are able to plant c4, engineer built, repair, defuse, and maybe some objective type for medic/covert/engineer.
Its also not exactly what I aim for but it should go in this direction. At times you can feel that the game loses momentum, when there is not exactly the X person which only can do Y around. There could be a medic/2 fops on the site, all waiting for a engineer/soldier. The planting could be done by more than one class, additional fops and covert as i mentioned above. This kind of multiclass objectives will give the players more freedom and more room for decision making, also it gives you more possibilities for strats. Would be nice to achieve the same things, with a different mix of classes. imho

ppl dont want to suicide, to do that specific objective just to switch back. Ppl will always tend to play the chars to get the most advantages for your team. Soldier, Medic, Fops are the ones for serious business, engineer just for short term.

I mean the fact that not everyone can do a objective, doesnt mean he is completely useless for the rest of the game, since the tier abilites arent available for us. With it we can finally judge about the quality of each character.
Indeed its important to discuss the basic gameplay without any abilities, to ensure a solid basis!

I mean CovertOps will be the class which is the last choice for comp play. You can count them as 4 classes, as it is now. And when they will introduce another medic, then there will be kinda a attack/defense medic. So thats bound to the side you are playing on and ofc personal preference, which playstyle fits better.

(tokamak) #145

Exactly. Combat efficiency needs to be a specialisation in and of itself, something which not all classes should have.

(Hundopercent) #146

cK had the best aimers (Valdez, Shogun, czm, Leethal) in RtCW for Quakecon and they still placed third relying heavily on their aim. Aim never trumps teamwork and never will. You do not need to force rock, paper, scissors to an FPS in order to make it feel team based. It’s the synergy of classes and players that make it a team game. If you ran this game with 5 of any class you would fail just as you would fail if you ran in 1 or 2 at a time vs a defending team. You need multiple classes and team work to accomplish anything whether you have the best aim or not.

Making medics innately the weakest class because you’re bitter about them in previous games is a poor decision. The correct way to handle it is to nerf how they heal which they have done already. However, nerfing how they heal, how much damage they do, how much ammo they have, then remove ammo from the bodies. You get where I am going with this (or I hope you do.) It will get to a point of where people will just not play medics. It’s already happened when we scrimmed/pugged a few times because the medic doesn’t bring anything to the table. You can’t heal because their is too much spam/crossfire happening, you can’t revive because either the body insta gibs, or if you revive you both will die because the revive damage reduction buff does pretty much nothing.

I guess we will see how things pan out, it just doesn’t look good from my pov.

(INF3RN0) #147

Teamwork should always be the most important thing, but only to a certain extent. Brink was a purely team work biased game and it really hurt the experience. It’s hard to get the perfect balance between the two a lot of the time, but I think the older titles came very close. Also wasn’t Doctors a very strong aimer team as well (the ones that won that tournament)? I know they have won a lot of stuff in a bunch of games and a few of their players I’ve played against are pretty well known for being great aimers.

(INF3RN0) #148

[QUOTE=strychzilla;436203]
Making medics innately the weakest class because you’re bitter about them in previous games is a poor decision. The correct way to handle it is to nerf how they heal which they have done already. However, nerfing how they heal, how much damage they do, how much ammo they have, then remove ammo from the bodies. You get where I am going with this (or I hope you do.) It will get to a point of where people will just not play medics. It’s already happened when we scrimmed/pugged a few times because the medic doesn’t bring anything to the table. You can’t heal because their is too much spam/crossfire happening, you can’t revive because either the body insta gibs, or if you revive you both will die because the revive damage reduction buff does pretty much nothing.

I guess we will see how things pan out, it just doesn’t look good from my pov.[/QUOTE]

It’s not about making anything weaker, but instead fixing an inherent issue that arose where medics were just better than everything else and didn’t fit their role. I played nothing but rambo medic in ETQW for years and so did most everyone else purely because it was better. We don’t need to make medics crap, but we should try a bunch of stuff and then decide what will actually fix the problem and not make the class worthless. Maybe the problem was with the other classes or maybe there wasn’t enough incentive for medics to act like “medics”. Even now the medic isn’t bringing a huge influence to the games because spawn times are low and people die so quickly. Lot’s of things interconnect when it comes to creating problems and a lot of changes don’t really do anything until the other stuff changes with it.

(Valdez) #149

Doctors were good aimers, but they were known for their teamwork.

(Hundopercent) #150

At that level of play everyone is a great aimer, cK had the best though. Wombat was pretty good don’t get me wrong, but in a duel none of them would beat Shogun, Valdez, Leethal, or czm.

(Humate) #151

I played nothing but rambo medic in ETQW for years and so did most everyone else purely because it was better.

Only in promod.
Medics couldn’t really touch scopers, vehicles, or flyers and in direct 1v1 they were average vs GPMG/hyper

(INF3RN0) #152

I don’t know too much about RTCW anyway, but I’ve had a lot of experiences with that kind of stuff and seen it a lot. The best feeling is beating a team that has overall better aim with better teamwork and coordination for sure. I also like that the difference between being a better dueler and a better team player makes a difference. There’s a lot less to think about in duels, where in I have seen a lot of lesser aimers do very well in a team environment because of good decision making. Most frag streaks I’ve seen in any high skill game by high skill players tend to be completely successful because of the way they approached the engagement (backraging/side raging/etc). I imagine Quake dueling would have been a much different game without items, booting out the smarter players. I still do like a good balance between smarts and aim though, which is why I think that DB could use some work in the moving spread department. A lot of smart play ends up only allowing for an extra kill, where in you really should be able to kill up to 3-5 people with a well timed and executed back rage. Soldier is the only class that can do that most of the time, but it’s mostly because he can spam more bullets. Increasing the clip size on other classes didn’t really solve the real issue which was the infamous creep spread.

(INF3RN0) #153

[QUOTE=Humate;436239]Only in promod.
Medics couldn’t really touch scopers, vehicles, or flyers and in direct 1v1 they were average vs GPMG/hyper[/QUOTE]

Well I was mostly referring to infantry maps. Pro vehicle play always dominated.

(BMXer) #154

[QUOTE=strychzilla;436203]cK had the best aimers (Valdez, Shogun, czm, Leethal) in RtCW for Quakecon and they still placed third relying heavily on their aim. Aim never trumps teamwork and never will. You do not need to force rock, paper, scissors to an FPS in order to make it feel team based. It’s the synergy of classes and players that make it a team game. If you ran this game with 5 of any class you would fail just as you would fail if you ran in 1 or 2 at a time vs a defending team. You need multiple classes and team work to accomplish anything whether you have the best aim or not.

Making medics innately the weakest class because you’re bitter about them in previous games is a poor decision. The correct way to handle it is to nerf how they heal which they have done already. However, nerfing how they heal, how much damage they do, how much ammo they have, then remove ammo from the bodies. You get where I am going with this (or I hope you do.) It will get to a point of where people will just not play medics. It’s already happened when we scrimmed/pugged a few times because the medic doesn’t bring anything to the table. You can’t heal because their is too much spam/crossfire happening, you can’t revive because either the body insta gibs, or if you revive you both will die because the revive damage reduction buff does pretty much nothing.

I guess we will see how things pan out, it just doesn’t look good from my pov.[/QUOTE]

Big +1 to everything said here.

I honestly don’t see the problem with medics being the top choice in past games. It never seemed to be a real problem to me. I honestly can’t remember joining an ETQW or ET pub where everyone was a medic. I remember the exact opposite happening quite a bit though. 12v12 ETQW pub with 2 medics!

And tbh all this medic nerfing really seems to only effect a small portion of the player base. Its generally only the “better” players who are playing rambo medic. That includes most of the players participating in the alpha. Most of us have comp in mind so we play rambo medic to practice our aim. There will always be “better” players playing super rambo just for prac. I don’t feel like all the medic nerfs help the game overall, they just nerf the few guys playing rambo medic on pubs.

(INF3RN0) #155

[QUOTE=BMXer;436244]Big +1 to everything said here.

I honestly don’t see the problem with medics being the top choice in past games. It never seemed to be a real problem to me. I honestly can’t remember joining an ETQW or ET pub where everyone was a medic. I remember the exact opposite happening quite a bit though. 12v12 ETQW pub with 2 medics!

And tbh all this medic nerfing really seems to only effect a small portion of the player base. Its generally only the “better” players who are playing rambo medic. That includes most of the players participating in the alpha. Most of us have comp in mind so we play rambo medic to practice our aim. There will always be “better” players playing super rambo just for prac. I don’t feel like all the medic nerfs help the game overall, they just nerf the few guys playing rambo medic on pubs.[/QUOTE]

Bmxer didn’t you play ETQW infantry comp :wink:. In pubs people played whatever they wanted because they weren’t trying to win a tournament lol. I never saw too many “better players” not playing medic, unless they were pro snipers or maybe using the Hyper (which was obviously not well balanced). Only time I ever saw a non-medic in infantry comp was if he was doing an objective.

(Humate) #156

We usually went - 2 rambo meds, 1 gpmg/hyper, 1heal med, 2 objective
And if we were up against 5 medics we would run a scope.

Back to DB, the only thing the medic needs atm is a new weapon.
They change that to something decent, I’ll start playing medic instead of fops.
Heal mechanics are fine though.

(Evil-Doer) #157

I’m pretty much with you here Humate :slight_smile: - I’m kind of feeling just more head damage at this point. What you thinking?

Also, more or less feeling that the soldier can be used by a player that maybe isn’t that great and it can help him player better. Though, if used by a phenomenal player it definitely won’t go unnoticed. So If you maybe up the head shot damage of a medic it puts him on even ground with everyone if your capable of aiming better.

May not be the direction we all want to go, but kind of my thoughts.

(Humate) #158

Its currently 4hs or 3hs? Its been that long since ive used it.

(INF3RN0) #159

I’d like increased headshot damage for med/fops/engy.

(Bangtastic) #160

SD make it happen! :slight_smile: