DB´s replayability and it´s impact on the playerbase


(onYn) #1

I don´t think that you can compare DB with CS or Dota. Both games actually exist for a long time and because of that many different mechanics apply to the development of there playerbase. Anyways, the thing is that those mechanics shouldn´t be effecting DB since most players (at least those who are playing) are relatively new. Obviously DB suffers from its development state that causes negative effects like bad performance and so on… So it´s hard to really judge those playerbase developments. What frightens me tho, is that the numbers are going down steadily. It´s not like people come in waves and leave because they don´t like it, the performance is too bad etc… No, the people who are coming in generally seem to like the concept of the game (after all they signed up for it) and try to give it a chance but get bored relatively fast.

I have been following the WoW development, and there reasoning and methods for holding players etc. for a long time. In the general opinion, the biggest reason for why WoW has declining numbers for years now, is that the replayablity is sinking. At first stance most addons and patches are actually great. A lot of people are usually coming back at times where those get released. Sometimes even more then Blizzard is expecting… But once people have seen everything that there is new to the game - they leave it again. And I think the reason for why we have those declining numbers in DB is mostly due to the very low replayability as well.

Once I have played the current map pool 2 or 3 times in a row, I am done. It feels as if I have seen everything that there is to the game. Probably that is not true, and I just don´t understand the more complex levels of the game and the meta that comes along with it. Maybe this is because I expect to be a complex team game like ET:QW was. But regardless how often I come back and how many chances I give it or how many friends I invite. We all end up playing something else. And that is by no means because DB is bad, it´s just because DB doesn´t offer this replayablity.

I am really wondering how you make people to play the same thing over and over again… And I think that one of the, if not THE main thing to consider is the diversity you experience within the game. A game that is supposed to be played over and over again HAS to offer various decisions and ways to go in order to achieve a goal. Playing always involves options. You need to be able to choose what you do and how you do it. That doesn´t mean that games that don´t offer you this kind of freedom are bad - they just aren´t gojng to be replayed that often. Those options, and there impact on the game are very minor in DB. To show this I am going to compare those to CS:GO, ET:QW as well as Mobas.

CS:GO:
-) What to buy at the beginning of every round (large impact, quiet linear tho)
-) Where to go and how to engage or position yourself (massive impact and also offering insane pool of options while being relevent for the most time of the game and crucial for EVERY single engagement with the enemy)
-) How to coordinate your team (large to massive impact and mostly adding diversity on a teamplay level when playing with friends etc.)
-) What role do you play right now (medium impact but still, identifying your role in a current round or lineup gives a unique flavour to every game and also can be in some cases a win condition, however it is quiet linear and mostly evolves around some of the points I mentioned earlier alongside with a different mindset).

ET:QW:
-) What class to pick and where to spawn (generally low impact and linear, but potentially game changing and required high skill of judgment in hectic situations)
-) Where to go and how to engage or position yourself (low to medium impact on individual level, still crucial at situations where you need to make a play but overall not too impactfull)
-) How to coordinate your team (insane impact, continuously adjusting your positioning and playstyle as a team is absolutely key)
-) What role do you play right now (high impact, due to the relevance of switching classes, the game situations and your own performance there are actually multiple roles you can fulfill during a game)

Mobas
:
-) What class to pick (high impact, but very linear since you have to follow at least some sort of meta)
-) Where to go and how to engage or position yourself (high impact, needs a lot of skill only few people in the world have actually mastered this - so much depth there is to it)
-) How to coordinate your team (insane impact, from minute 1 until the end of the game you need to know what your objectives as a team are and again due to it´s complexity only few teams in the world actually can be considered as good in doing so)
-) What role do you play right now (high impact, according to your picked class there may be various roles you can fulfill, identifying which role your team needs you to fulfill and being able to execute it is again something only few people really are able to do)

DB (my judgments may be little off at this one… correct me if i am wrong):
-) What class to pick and which loadout (medium to high impact, for the objective part of the game mostly irrelevant, in therms of team lineup decently impact full but overall really not that game changing as long as you manage to kill something…)
-) Where to go and how to engage or position yourself (low impact, on a team level almost no impact as long as you go together, individually some impact and in clutch situations potentially decent impact)
-) How to coordinate your team (medium impact, it´s still important to understand if you need to be aggressive or rather defensive as a team, but sadly there aren´t many wasy to actually executy various positionings and tactics)
-) What role do you play right now (medium to high impact, according to the gamesituation and your current performance there may be different roles you are better at then others but in case of DB the possibilities are very limited)

Overall your options are very limited in DB and mostly not that impactfull. Regardless if on indivudual or on a team basis, besides switching your class, and the general role you have in the current situation/game and VERY FEW positions and ways to engage there is almost no diversity at all. I am not going to count loadouts here, which are going to be mostly purchasable… Because of that the fun you will have after playing it over and over again will decline rapidly with time, since the potential game situations and decisions that come along with it aren´t there and the game ends to be a linear run and gun - in my eyes a horrible combination. Sure some people are still going to enjoy it, but if that´s going to be enough for them to spend some money and overall to keep a f2p alive… I don´t know.

As far as I understand the current situation, we either need a much, much, MUCH deeper character customization (more in direction of a moba) or more tactical FPS elements (those can come from general gameplay and/or map changes). And since Overwatch is going to be out sooner or later, I really hope that DB will make the shift towards more team and tactical oriented gameplay. Because making a rather “casual” game that is similar to an upcoming Blizzard game is going to be a disaster. No offense SD but they have proven to be good in doing such games repeatedly and probably have a much higher budget on top of that…

cheers,
onYn

PS: That post originally was supposed to be a reply to another post… Because of that the beginning seems a little bit off :stuck_out_tongue:


(BioSnark) #2

Good post as usual.

For me, the problem with replayability is all about depth. Mercs have 1-2 abilities and 3 weapons. 3 mercs to select from in match. Maps are funnels with a few alt routes. No friendly fire factoring into firefight positioning or ability usage. There’s a shallow pool of options to choose from or factors to consider at any given time. When considering how to improve, better overcome an obstacle, or avoid a mistake, the list is much less than ET:QW.


(chickenNwaffles) #3

O V E R W A T C H

or Project Bluestreak


(onYn) #4

[QUOTE=BioSnark;536576]Good post as usual.

For me, the problem with replayability is all about depth. Mercs have 1-2 abilities and 3 weapons. 3 mercs to select from in match. Maps are funnels with a few alt routes. No friendly fire factoring into firefight positioning or ability usage. There’s a shallow pool of options to choose from or factors to consider at any given time. When considering how to improve, better overcome an obstacle, or avoid a mistake, the list is much less than ET:QW.[/QUOTE]

Yeah thanks for that. I forgot to mention that tactical FPS options aren´t the only think that is actually lacking and/or is going to help in therms of replayability. Proper customization for your mercs could actually help a LOT in that regard as well. It would be optimal to get both in my opinion, but one of those approaches would be good enough already I think…


(Szakalot) #5

main reason for lack of replayability is of course bad matchmaking.

Small pool of maps adds to the problem, but if you can get people hyped to want to play to win, even the 5-6 maps are fine; provided that matches are challenging, balanced, and meaningful (none of that ; win 15 times for a generic gold5 to become a generic gold4)


(shibbyuk) #6

Much as I don’t necessarily want it to be the case, I must say that stats & achievements can also be a pretty decent retainer of a player… People seem to love the “meta” game. Same goes for customisation (as previously mentioned); I can’t imagine we’ll see anything like Brink’s model any time soon, though.


(tangoliber) #7

Out of all the complaints people have, very few are related to gameplay. I think most everyone agrees that the gameplay is very good and replayable.

[QUOTE=chickenNwaffles;536577]O V E R W A T C H
[/QUOTE]

I’m interested in Overwatch as a diversion from DB, but it looks like a slower game. And most of the characters have more inaccurate weapons than in DB. Soldier 76 and Pharah look fun. And their medics are TF2 style, which is boring. You don’t have to aim the healing beam.


(Chux) #8

Asymmetric spawn waves and randomized 1st interval at the beginning of the map would also help and bring something new to each game. It gets boring when both teams spawn at exactly the same time every interval (comp format). I don’t get it why they haven’t changed this yet. Comp gets dull very quickly.


(Phantomchan) #9

Dirty Bomb is a great game despite it’s flaws. It’s infact the most fun FPS I have ever played.


(fubar) #10

Because they don’t see a problem with the current system. No matter how much we kick, scream, scratch and whine. Their beloved echo data tells them everything’s just a-okay.


(onYn) #11

The gameplay in fact is decent - but for the current maps just not diverse enough. So even tho I don´t think that it´s bad, it just is something that if improved could solve the issue of the game getting boring relatively fast. I think that this “low” diversity in gameplay comes from the fact that SD is trying to make DB as casual friendly as possible. At least thats my view on it. Sadly many companies (but thankfull not as many as some years ago) are following this trend as well, making any reasonable argumentation against it pretty much pointless. And while I am not sure that it´s actually easier to make a casual friendly game it (in my eyes) for sure isn´t going to help in attracting and holding a crowd in the long therm. There are many examples for that if you look at the F2P marekt but well… Probably I am just seeing it all wrong anyways :slight_smile:


(Szakalot) #12

true, the problem with making DB look casual-friendly is the fact that it REALLY ISN’T.

Sure, you can pick up a medic and spam revives on max lvl servers. But once exposed to the global population you will find a lot of skills associated with aiming&movement that you gotta learn before being able to compete.

Imo we could use more types of min lvl servers. Min lvl 10 is a good start, and it increased the quality of the game tremendously but:

a) these servers are either completely empty, or completely full
b) many minlvl10 servers do not keep up with the lvl 20/30/40+ closed beta veterans, who easily destroy new lvl10 players.

In the end though, its all about good matchmaking. If you can find a satisfying match with your friends, you will be alright.


(Chux) #13

[QUOTE=fubar;536637]Because they don’t see a problem with the current system. No matter how much we kick, scream, scratch and whine. Their beloved echo data tells them everything’s just a-okay.[/QUOTE]Well, I’m slowly losing my voice from all the screaming and will eventually go mute. I’m afraid I’m not the only one.


(onYn) #14

[QUOTE=Szakalot;536667]true, the problem with making DB look casual-friendly is the fact that it REALLY ISN’T.

Sure, you can pick up a medic and spam revives on max lvl servers. But once exposed to the global population you will find a lot of skills associated with aiming&movement that you gotta learn before being able to compete.[/QUOTE]

Yeah… this remembers me of a phrase I was using a year ago when posting on those forums. “DB is not cohesive.” And this is just another example of that fact. Many potential game mechanics were taken out of a game in order to make it casual friendly while the core gameplay is not and never was friendly towards newcomers. That´s like puting alcohol into your pudding hoping that both, adults and children are going to like it…


(Loki.) #15

May seem like a odd complaint or, lets say observation.

Server Browser: Just a list of US West or US East etc. Servers
there is no Unique feel… Like you find with other games whether they be Public or Private servers. (i’ve heard they are coming, who knows when)

Yeah i can join a game if some friends are on, but then its, once again some random generic server.

How many servers did you have locked in Favs in RTCW, W:ET, or ETQW? Servers you knew most the peeps playing on just by name, not friends per say but just fellow gamers you knew where good players and team players and not a$$-hats?!

Those servers never died (well until the game died out) but you get my meaning… Peeps would populate those servers all day… It would be the first server(s) you logged into day in day out.
With DB, am lucky to stay on ONE server more then 2 maps, and those are usually Stopwatch- but once the match ends, server is empty…

You dont hang out on a server in DB and play for hours on end, on the Same server (your results may vary)
But I see people constantly hoping from one populated server to another…

Forums are another example, 3 different places one can go. Here, Steam, or Nexon

I know its early… but for me there is no sense of community with this game…

The only way a game, especially a FTP game, survives, is a strong Community. This game is void of any such thing at this time, and there appears to be no effort in correcting or creating it, which is really odd. Since the game just came out,its make or brink (err break) time.


(onYn) #16

I think that the reason why the servers get empty that fast is actually a good one. I think that this is the case because the servers are actually equally good.
Back then we had only a handfull of servers with decent ping and not too horrible packet loss… That´s why people kinda grouped at good servers.

Anyways, what is a good idea, is to give the servers we have some character… some flavour. I think if SD would allow people/clans to rent those servers, and name them after there clans or after a gaming community etc., it would give us all this flavour and character to the servers we need, while actually bringing in some money for DB. Maybe something like this is on the way… but since I know how many opportunities SD usually likes to miss out I am not to sure really :slight_smile:


(Szakalot) #17

Giving server names would already be a great step, especially considering how freaking easy it should be to do!

Who knows, maybe some servers (‘cobalt mines’ like somebody once suggested) would get rep for being teamplay friendly and cheater-unfriendly, people would gather, kick all the lameass cheaters out and build themselves a community.


(Glottis-3D) #18

to put it simple:

you play a game, if your good at it.
Give players tools and chances to be/become good/better and they’ll play it, just do not make them be able to ruin other’s players experience (i.e. phantom 1st 2015 version).

-make maps, that have options. More routes, sneak plants, trick plants, good secondaries.
-make gameplay responsive (do not mess with input)
-get rid of ‘strange’ things, that lead to frustration (i.e. moving spawns)
-less instakill or instagib. Having both - Long TTK and instakill/gib weapons is a bad idea.


(onYn) #19

[QUOTE=Glottis-3D;536739]to put it simple:

you play a game, if your good at it.

-make maps, that have options. More routes, sneak plants, trick plants, good secondaries.[/QUOTE]

Well, I don´t have to be good at it…but I will play a game for a longer time, if it allows me to find my own playstyle and go along with it. At the same time I want to have the freedom of choice as often as possible. I want the game to be my playground where I can try out many things by unleashing all the unique gameplay mechanics and apply them as good as I can on the map. With the mercs we have an insane potential in that regard, but right now they are carrying this game almost by themselves and thats sad…

The maps point is quiet good and my biggest concern while also my last hope. I would also include some capturable spawns and generally larger scaled maps.
With spawns that are takeable defenders as well as attackers are going to be faced with a much harder decision when approaching a new objective. It´s going to add another layer of resources and risk taking management.
Larger scale maps could support multiple types of gunfight at one objective. An objective that requires a unique mixture of combat ranges to hold as well as attack makes using proper mercs much more crucial and adjusting to your opponent much more challenging. The current map design with rather linear paths and minimal positioning variety seem to be more fitting towards an tactical slow paced angle holding shooter but by no means supports the fast paced jump around the corner into your face action that DB offers.

At this point I am wondering, what it would cost to get some answers from at least one of the current game designers that work on DB… :slight_smile: I know that no one cares what I write about, but I am still kinda uncertain if I really should move and and leave DB behind me or keep hoping. I am not hoping for it to become the best game in my eyes, just one I can jump on without wondering myself why this and that is missing and not understanding why it has to be this way.


(Ashog) #20

maps maps maps

shortage of maps or no devkit - no game longevity. point.