DB Design Doc: In-Session Progression System

(Humate) #101

The only ones that mattered were light weapons, and even then they only mattered if you were up against someone of equal skill. The class specific ones, only enticed players to stick to 1 class that didnt really understand the game.

(Hundopercent) #102

[QUOTE=Bananas;439431]How did what he say prove your point? Think of the xp like money. You earn the xp and then buy whatever class ability you want. Like if you earned enough for tier 3 in engineer, you could swap to medic to use the revive grenade.

It works just like buying in counterstrike if that makes it more understandable. You can’t buy the AWP and then decide you want the deagle after. You make up your mind before you spend the money.[/QUOTE]

Because if you’re buying class abilities for a specific class why would you play a different one? Again, it locks you into the class. Since you guys love referencing CS, you could drop your gun and give it to someone else. Are we going to be able to ability trade in DB so we can make it exactly like CS or are we going to stfu and stop trying to compare DB to MOBAs and MMS’s? It’s getting obnoxious.

(INF3RN0) #103

It doesn’t seem like your fully understanding how the tier 3 abilities work though. This is proposing them as only a one-time use ability and you can pick which class to unlock it on regardless of how you earned your XP. The abilities themselves aren’t very dependable and don’t necessarily need to function as OHK cheese. Also it does say that you can pass off certain tier3 abilities like the rocket launcher, as well as the supply crate or MG being usable by everyone.

Do you just not like the idea of having this feature personally (similar to CS or the others mentioned)? or do you think it wouldn’t work well with the game mechanics of DB? I’m skeptical too, but if the abilities require skill to use, are equally useful, and don’t sway the entire outcome of games- I think it might be an interesting feature.

(Hundopercent) #104

[QUOTE=INF3RN0;439648]It doesn’t seem like your fully understanding how the tier 3 abilities work though. This is proposing them as only a one-time use ability and you can pick which class to unlock it on regardless of how you earned your XP. The abilities themselves aren’t very dependable and don’t necessarily need to function as OHK cheese. Also it does say that you can pass off certain tier3 abilities like the rocket launcher, as well as the supply crate or MG being usable by everyone.

Do you just not like the idea of having this feature personally (similar to CS or the others mentioned)? or do you think it wouldn’t work well with the game mechanics of DB? I’m skeptical too, but if the abilities require skill to use, are equally useful, and don’t sway the entire outcome of games- I think it might be an interesting feature.[/QUOTE]

No, I completely understand how they work. The problem is you are incapable of viewing something from someone else’s perspective. Reiterating the same thing over and over and over again isn’t going to make me magically start agreeing with you…

Do continue comparing DB to MOBA’s, CS, and CoD that way we can grab all the worst elements from each game and implement them into one trashy abomination…

(INF3RN0) #105

I don’t want you to agree with me and I don’t even have a definite stance on it since it hasn’t even been tested at all. I just wanted to know how you thought it was going to ruin or break the game? The stuff you were saying didn’t really make sense based on what I was reading off the main post so I just wanted to understand the reasoning in more detail.

(Humate) #106

I’m willing to try and test these things out in a competitive setting, but im still pretty sceptical about it at the same time.
If teams generally get the passive abilities all at the same time, why wouldnt you just unlock them from the start and forget about the XP race?

(Maca) #107

I think he means that after you’ve earned the tier3, then you have to stay as that class if you want to use it. You want to use the item, and you don’t want to waste it, so even though you CAN change the class and then change back again, you most likely want to stay the same so you can use it just at the right moment to get full potential out of the item you’ve invested your time on. Perhaps at the cost of using a class that would be actually more suitable for the situation.
Personally I’m not sure if this is a huge drawback though.

And if some deployed items disappear if you change class you’re definitely locked, but this was not said, so is probably not true and thus no issue.

(Hundopercent) #108

[QUOTE=Maca;439716]I think he means that after you’ve earned the tier3, then you have to stay as that class if you want to use it. You want to use the item, and you don’t want to waste it, so even though you CAN change the class and then change back again, you most likely want to stay the same so you can use it just at the right moment to get full potential out of the item you’ve invested your time on. Perhaps at the cost of using a class that would be actually more suitable for the situation.
Personally I’m not sure if this is a huge drawback though.

And if some deployed items disappear if you change class you’re definitely locked, but this was not said, so is probably not true and thus no issue.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I didn’t think I needed to explain in that much detail but I will keep it in mind for future posts. Thanks Maca. Either way it creates imbalances, minor or not, it’s not balanced and from a competitive stand point we generally remove it if possible.

Like moving forward increases your spread by a large margin. This innately gives defense an advantage. Another imbalance that doesn’t need to be there. It serves no purpose.

(INF3RN0) #109

I just don’t get how the fact that you can choose to unlock your ability at literally anytime on any class is going to cause this problem? The choice you make on what class to unlock the ability on is going to force you to use the ability on that class sure, but you have complete freedom up to the point that you make the choice. You wouldn’t even need to spend the XP for the unlock until you thought it was the right time, where in you would change your class and unlock that ability within a small time frame. Based off of what I am hearing here it really seems like this is being overlooked or highly exaggerated.

And then from a competitive standpoint I’m looking at all these proposed abilities and how they work, and I only really see a few that even seems like it might be worthwhile. Even then “worthwhile” doesn’t even mean that they would have a bigger impact than the basic class abilities and just shooting your gun. How would these destroy the balance of the game exactly? I could assume they would all give inherent one-click advantage or be instant OHK, but it doesn’t say that so I can also assume that perhaps the rocket launcher would act like a panzer does.

Instead of assuming it’s all going to be on one extreme, why not list those extremes so they get avoided and then list how they could work if they involved that skill-use and the system itself was more flexible; though the way I see it now the system seems incredibly flexible towards players. The other side of the picture is being avoided in the discussion, so that’s why I’m asking a repetitive question as usual.

(Hundopercent) #110

[QUOTE=INF3RN0;439749]I just don’t get how the fact that you can choose to unlock your ability at literally anytime on any class is going to cause this problem? The choice you make on what class to unlock the ability on is going to force you to use the ability on that class sure, but you have complete freedom up to the point that you make the choice. You wouldn’t even need to spend the XP for the unlock until you thought it was the right time, where in you would change your class and unlock that ability within a small time frame. Based off of what I am hearing here it really seems like this is being overlooked or highly exaggerated.

And then from a competitive standpoint I’m looking at all these proposed abilities and how they work, and I only really see a few that even seems like it might be worthwhile. Even then “worthwhile” doesn’t even mean that they would have a bigger impact than the basic class abilities and just shooting your gun. How would these destroy the balance of the game exactly? I could assume they would all give inherent one-click advantage or be instant OHK, but it doesn’t say that so I can also assume that perhaps the rocket launcher would act like a panzer does.

Instead of assuming it’s all going to be on one extreme, why not list those extremes so they get avoided and then list how they could work if they involved that skill-use and the system itself was more flexible; though the way I see it now the system seems incredibly flexible towards players. The other side of the picture is being avoided in the discussion, so that’s why I’m asking a repetitive question as usual.[/QUOTE]

We’re at the point that no matter how well I explain it you, you’re still not going to understand. Im not going to waste more time explaining it further…

(INF3RN0) #111

I’d wish you wouldn’t just avoid the questions. Here I’ll quote you this time so you know why I am asking you to explain it further.

[QUOTE=strychzilla;438968]
Bad players get rewarded with more OHK/cheese weapons - at some point. (for me this is a con but bad players need to get kills to keep playing right?)
Fun and addicting up front. May cause players to impulse buy (good for SD to get money from impulse players)[/QUOTE]

This isn’t necessarily true. Your just assuming the abilities are meant to be easy to use OHK/Cheese. They don’t have to be- you gotta acknowledge that much. Since we don’t actually know the complete details then what would you suggest they function like instead of the cheese route? Rocketlauncher could have a long firing time (panzer), the revive nade could have a small radius, etc. They already only have a one-time use so that further limits their effectiveness.

Again this is not necessarily true. This is again assuming these abilities actually give you a weighted advantage. Based on the descriptions of the abilities why do you think that this is the case specifically? How will having any of the listed one-time use abilities sway the entire outcome of a match? If you are only able to earn up to 2 abilities per player per match is that enough to cause a problem? I think these are questions that should be answered.

(Hundopercent) #112

Because you don’t just ask a question, you ask questions, say you don’t understand, ask more questions, counter rebuttal with thoughtless ideas, and ask more questions as to why or why not it would work. My 5 yr old doesn’t even ask that many questions. That’s why it’s easier to just say, “You’re right this idea is great!” to shut you up and then move on, but to appease you I will answer these questions and then probably never reply to you again.

It’s an assumption based on previous experiences. SD has not only shown that they want implement spam/OHK/cheese (grenade launcher, mine, sticky bombs) but it’s even brought up as an idea in this thread. It’s more of an educated guess based off facts. What do I suggest? I suggest they can the entire idea because I can not see it working in comp and pub play. That’s the direction they want to take this game but with ideas like this they’re going 60 in oncoming traffic.

[QUOTE=Anti;433127]
Progression Tree
In-session Progression takes the form of a short progression tree. As the player earns XP they progress up the tree, unlocking abilities and upgrades as they achieve set milestones.

The lower level upgrades unlocked on the tree are passive improvements to that character’s specific abilities, improving things like its range, cool down rate, power or damage. Once the player unlocks these upgrades they are retained for the rest of that session.[/quote]

That is exactly true. The dominate team, with the more experience, will have more and more potent abilities than the team getting crushed. Thus they get stronger. Unless they add handicaps and bonuses to the losing team so they can still reach their milestones. At that point what’s the point of the system? Why not just give tier 1 abilities to everyone at 2 mins in, tier 2 at 6 mins in, and tier 3 at 12 mins in?

Faster/strong med packs
Faster Ammo packs that regen grenades
longer conc/flash bang time
More wall hack range
stronger mines with large splash radius or turrets that lock on faster and do more damage

This is all speculation but how would either of those not change the way the game is played?

And yes even if 1 player gets 1 ability it could change the match. He has an advantage. Since everyone here wants to relate this to LoL I will give the example of mid getting first blood or hitting L6 first. That player is generally at an advantage until ganked or the other player hits L6.

In conclusion - We’ve passed healthy discussion and moved on to the point of where you are incapable of thinking or using common sense and I am now having to break down individual sentences so you can understand things. I do not have the patience or time for that.

(INF3RN0) #113

[QUOTE=strychzilla;439795]
In conclusion - We’ve passed healthy discussion and moved on to the point of where you are incapable of thinking or using common sense and I am now having to break down individual sentences so you can understand things. I do not have the patience or time for that.[/QUOTE]

What your saying is true, I won’t argue that. It’s a “worst case scenario” under the assumption that that’s how SD wants it to work. If they do want it to work like that, then yes I agree it should be scrapped. Maybe they can state clearly that they want it to be exactly like your describing so that I don’t feel led on. That is all, thanks.

(Anti) #114

The lower tier upgrades are tiny, we’re talking 1% to 5% differences, normally to things like ability cool down rather than direct benefits to ability effects themselves.

That said, to me these upgrades are less valuable to the game than the ‘ultimate’ abilities and if they don’t work out I could see us not even bothering with them at all. I see the ultimate abilities as being more important as they could add more depth and variety to matches, in the same way Quake or UT’s power-ups did, or big money rounds do in CS.

The point with the ultimates is that they should be equally available to both teams, they should only be earned by those performing well, they should not be persistent and they should require skill to use.

(pulley) #115

ya but a big problem is as u said

In Quake they have a timing system.
In CS u have after 1 Pistol round enough money to strike back

But in DB as loosing team u don’t even get the chance to strike back. So please erase them!

(Kendle) #116

And therein lies the rub. In StopWatch the defence gain XP quicker, so gain the extra abilities quicker. They’re not equally available to both teams.

Even if you dreamt up some mechanic designed to ensure both teams got the upgrades at about the same time, it still wouldn’t be as fair (which is the No.1 priority for competition) as giving them to both teams at exactly the same time, i.e based on time elapsed in the match rather than XP gained.

I can only see competition working in 1 of 3 scenarios :-

  1. No-one gets any upgrades at all.
  2. Everyone gets all upgrades at the start of the match.
  3. Everyone gets each tier at fixed times after the start of the match.

Either way, XP doesn’t, and shouldn’t, come into it.

If you can’t accept that conclusion and are determined that SW competition will include XP progression you’re on a hiding to nothing IMHO.

(pulley) #117

Kendle there is one more thing. Most named Abilities perform better in the defenses team…

(Anti) #118

[QUOTE=Kendle;440048]And therein lies the rub. In StopWatch the defence gain XP quicker, so gain the extra abilities quicker. They’re not equally available to both teams.

Even if you dreamt up some mechanic designed to ensure both teams got the upgrades at about the same time, it still wouldn’t be as fair (which is the No.1 priority for competition) as giving them to both teams at exactly the same time, i.e based on time elapsed in the match rather than XP gained.

I can only see competition working in 1 of 3 scenarios :-

  1. No-one gets any upgrades at all.
  2. Everyone gets all upgrades at the start of the match.
  3. Everyone gets each tier at fixed times after the start of the match.

Either way, XP doesn’t, and shouldn’t, come into it.

If you can’t accept that conclusion and are determined that SW competition will include XP progression you’re on a hiding to nothing IMHO.[/QUOTE]

This was my point earlier in the thread, as Stopwatch is played on both sides the balance doesn’t need to be just between Defenders and Attackers, but also between Defenders and Defenders.

We don’t want the mode to be defense biased obviously, but attackers and defenders can earn these at different rates as long as there is solid balance between when the first defenders earned them and when the second defenders might earn them (i.e. upgrades aren’t carried between halves).

(Kendle) #119

Sorry Anti, but you still don’t understand Stopwatch, it is NOT balanced by the fact the teams swap sides.

If defence get upgrades first, even if in round 2 the new defence get them the same time the previous defence did, it’s still not right. SW is about setting times. Anything that prejudices times being set is BAD. Defence getting upgrades first prejudices times being set, in both halves. It doesn’t matter that it prejudices each team equally, it matters that it prejudices either team AT ALL.

(pulley) #120

is there a way telling us how many games had a full hold and how many not?