Very excited for this system. I think it still needs a lot of work and tweaking though.
Seems like this system will be good for adding “exciting game changing moments” into the game. Could be good for comp too. Give players a chance to really have that moment in the spotlight.
Never been a fan of per map or per campaign upgrades or killstreak rewards etc.
However this is probably due to all existing implementations executing a balance shift as raised by others.
If these unlocks were implemented in a more sidegrade or something for variety/interest to mix things up a little, but didn’t intrinsically give an “advantage” and ensured XP dealing was fairly even then there is a potential for the scale to swing from imbalanced to fun.
I’m still fairly skeptical and think it’s a very fine line to balance.
This is just an idea, but what if the system worked in different direction.
Have the example from my previous post, but this time assault begins the game with 2 nades and one extra clip.
When he gets the xp required to get tier1 he gets a choice: start prgoressing towards tier3, or stay the same the whole game. If he decides to progress towards tier3, he looses that extra clip, that’s what tier1 does. Then when he gets to tier2, he looses one of his nades, and then when he gets to tier3, it finally pays off, because then he gets the panzerfaust, which is still one shot, and when a set amount of xp is earned again he gets another shot and so on, like in the original system.
If he decides to not progress to tier1 immediately, he can afterwards do that whenevever, but of course he hasn’t accumulated any progress in between.
This is still problematic because it relies on xp, but instead of the better team getting more powerful all the time, they get weaker if they choose to go after the somewhat powerful one time use item.
This could be counter-intuitive to pub gamers, so the game should somehow justify and explain it well.
I agree. They’re highly circumstantial. And because they’re one-time only it also doesn’t really pay to get them as early as possible.
You want the last tier to be permanent advantages, that way there’s a real value in trying to obtain them as fast as possible and makes the whole thing more of a race.
I think that given that at some point grenade launchers are going to be thrown into the mix, with the 3rd Solider class. Maybe the Solders missile launcher should be shelved for a riot shield. Possibly hand the missile launcher when on indoor maps to the support class. An also give him a mortar instead when outdoor maps are in play as his role is taking out the EV in any case. Conversely I think healing grenades should be shelved for pack of combat stimulant hypos. That when injected into teammates increase baseline stats by a small yet noticeable margin, like lowering the recoil slightly. To slightly more health and higher damage thresholds, maybe even a little more air acceleration & jump height.
Not sure how I missed this before but wow, to me, this all sounds really bad, especially for comp play. I’m not trying to be Mr. Negative though, I’m sure that’s how the SD devs perceive me. I’m also not trying to remake RtCW. though again, I’m sure that’s what SD thinks I’m trying to do. Both are wrong, I’m trying to assist in making a better game that will last a long time and have some tournaments.
A lot of these ideas sound, CoDish. I don’t really understand why you’re going this direction. There are a lot more cons then pros if you use this approach and honestly, I don’t think you’re going to capture your core players with this, it could potentially turn them off.
Pros:
Bad players get rewarded with more OHK/cheese weapons - at some point. (for me this is a con but bad players need to get kills to keep playing right?)
Fun and addicting up front. May cause players to impulse buy (good for SD to get money from impulse players)
Cons:
Joining a game late makes you innately weaker than everyone else.
1 team will progressively get stronger than the other as the match goes on.
More OHK/cheese weapons, making it extremely frustrating to play against.
Maps will be 35 - 40 mins long because that’s how you would design them to be (matches should be 22 - 28 minutes tops)
Promotes selfish play, which I thought you were trying to discourage but since their are ammo racks everywhere I guess I was wrong.
The stronger player gets stronger, the weaker player stays weak. (Snowball affect)
The match will be unbalanced after 3 mins and continue to be unbalanced until 14 minutes.
This is very disheartening to read and I really hope you reconsider before devoting too much time and resources. From what I understand you guys are trying to add game depth and I just don’t believe you add game depth by inflating OHK/cheese items and weapons. This isn’t really adding depth to the game, this is like trying to merge 3 marvels/DC universes into 1 and then selling it. People like to read it up front but then they always go back to the original.
Valdez put out a good read here:
and this picture pretty much says all I needed to say:
strychzilla i don’t think SD is going to change their decision at this stage anymore. Its clear to see which way this is all going to.
We just have to wait and see how it will really work out for use competitive players. And hope, if it will not work out, they will release a solution asap!
[QUOTE=pulley;438973]strychzilla i don’t think SD is going to change their decision at this stage anymore. Its clear to see which way this is all going to.
We just have to wait and see how it will really work out for use competitive players. And hope, if it will not work out, they will release a solution asap![/QUOTE]
This may be true, but I can at least say I tried. 
[QUOTE=strychzilla;438968]Long Post
[/QUOTE]Most of your concerns could be solved with how the system is balanced and designed. I’m sure Splash Damage has already considered some of your concerns. As far as OHK/cheese weapons, they’ll only be able to be used once or twice a map. They’re meant to be game changers, not spam. Sounds like a lot of the abilities will be “skill based” too. You could completely whiff your “ultimate”.
Personally I hope there’s an OFF switch for the whole XP system, it was the worst thing ET brought to the table IMO. I still remember Engie’s on my own team disarming my dynamite so they could plant their own, even being TK’ed to stop me doing something so someone else could get the XP for it. A truly awful few months before ETPro came along and XP off servers started appearing.
XP brings out the worst in people IMO, and tbh I was hoping to just completely avoid it, which is why I have no enthusiasm for contributing to this thread. I feel dirty even talking about it, but if there’s not going to be an off switch I guess I’ll have to deal with it sometime … 
Its the selfish part which makes it troublesome. eXperiencePoints itself is a good concept. Question is what do you have todo to earn those? Escort a engi and die more often - or be the Hitman.
Also what can you spend XP for, something selfish? Or can you get an upgrade for your fireteam/ hole team. Do you get one type of XP , or are there multiple types - as per class.
In my humble opinion, Dirtybomb is currently boosting selfish players. Adding stuff for a single individual - yes a rocket is for multiple targets… but thats it.
And yes it definetitely needs a lot of good ideas for powerups, guns, and whatever else which promote/force teamplay. Also powerups/guns which can be tacticaly used against another powerup/gun.
On top of that, shooting can still be rewarded, and tons of guns added. But the selfish player stuff should be secondary, if not tertiary.
The only cheese weapon I saw there was the rocket launcher, which could totally end up functioning like the Panzerfaust; which I think most everyone wouldn’t have a problem with??? Again a case of assuming that every ability will be a skill-less OHK cheese ability, but we will have to wait and see. I don’t think that is the intention or the purpose of these abilities. If they do end up being like that, I’ll be the first to suggest changes.
A question to Splash Damage: How set in stone are you on the Tier 3 abilities? Could we see more added or existing ones scrapped/changed? I’m just curious if giving feedback on them individually is helpful. For example, I don’t find the UAV a useful or fun ability.
Also, has multiple Tier 3 abilities for each class been considered? That way you would have more options to choose from.
I would wager they are still floating around in molten lava.
It’s more of a first draft for a suggested idea that would need a lot of refining, tweaking and “we’d really like to make this work”, but could even eventually end up on the scrap heap for the greater good.
Also, having players lose their T3 ability when switching classes will again lock people into playing a class instead of giving them freedom to play how they want. I know I say that a lot but I’m a strong support of letting players play the game the way they want to play it and not herd them like cattle. With the locked loadouts, maps, and now tiers the bell around my neck is getting a bit heavy.
[QUOTE=Anti;433127]
[li]Progress towards tier 3 can be transferred to another class. If an Engineer has 3800XP and switched to Medic then he’ll retain that progress towards tier [/QUOTE][/li]
It’s a bit confusing, but you just can’t transfer the class unlock to another after you’ve picked it. Ex. revive nade then swapping to soldier. So if you want to use the revive nade you selected, you would have to be medic to use it. You could however earn the XP on medic and then swap to whatever class to unlock their ability for use at whatever time you chose.
Doesn’t this just further prove my point? You would have to lock in and play the class you pick from the start. Wasn’t this system removed from the promod in ET? It was for a reason I’m sure.
[QUOTE=strychzilla;439426]Doesn’t this just further prove my point? You would have to lock in and play the class you pick from the start. Wasn’t this system removed from the promod in ET? It was for a reason I’m sure.[/QUOTE]How did what he say prove your point? Think of the xp like money. You earn the xp and then buy whatever class ability you want. Like if you earned enough for tier 3 in engineer, you could swap to medic to use the revive grenade.
It works just like buying in counterstrike if that makes it more understandable. You can’t buy the AWP and then decide you want the deagle after. You make up your mind before you spend the money.
And from my understanding, you do that with the character classes as well.
You pick which version of the medic / fops / engie / covert / soldier characters before you join the match.
You cant change to medic2 with shotgun, if youve gone for medic1 with the paintgun - sorry i mean smg.
No… it let’s you pick what class you want to use the xp on for the unlock. You can earn the XP on one class and then you decide what other class you want to spend the XP on for the one-time ability. You can choose where to unlock the ability, so I don’t know what you mean there. After you use the ability then your free to switch back to whatever you like. If you see the quote I pulled it should make sense.
We had persistent campaign unlocks in ETQW, but it took 3 maps of saved XP to get near full unlocks for one class. Even then the unlocks weren’t that significant that you wouldn’t want to play another class nor would you get insanely stronger. The class roles there always out shadowed the persistent upgrades/unlocks.
