Control

(H0RSE) #21

The big drawback for me, is idk if I could use my gaming headset with it.

(Herandar) #22

Why, what’s wrong with your headset?

(H0RSE) #23

the adapter for it is designed to fit in an xbox controller. You know, the mic jack with the goofy “outlet holes” on each side.

I don’t think the onza has said “outlet holes.”

(Herandar) #24

Agreed. It doesn’t have those on any pictures of it.

(X-Frame) #25

I’m a minority I guess. I love KZ2’s controls (and dislike KZ3’s.) :stuck_out_tongue:

(Cankor) #26

[QUOTE=Bezzy;261085]Thanks for this. I feel a prototype coming on. I may have a few misgivings, though. I think you can go TOO far toward ergonomics: Part of human nature is to adapt one’s self to tools… let the tools shape us as we learn to use them.

But I will definitely give this a try, and report back my findings.[/QUOTE]

This is the way I feel about the way most mouse manufacturers arrange their thumb buttons (the "not built the way our hand works thing). An up down movement is easy, the forward back movement (as most thumb buttons would make you do) is awkward and unnatural. MS Sidewinder stacked thumb buttons FTW, how come they are the only ones to figure this out?

As far as adapting to tools, there will always be some amount of adaption required but the goal should always be to make the interface as intuitive and natural as possible so you can get right down to the task at hand. Isn’t this part of what Brink is all about as well?

(3Suns) #27

[QUOTE=Bezzy;261095]Well, that was quick.

Um. There’s no reason not to have it, but it’s just another way in which you can screw yourself over, since it’s not a standard thing: you’ll hop between games, some of which have it, and some of which don’t, and each time it’s like unlearning all your muscle memory.

If it was the first time you ever picked up a controller, and every game supported it, it’d be fine. But at this point, I think you don’t have enough faith in your thumbs to adapt to slight idiosyncrasies.[/QUOTE]

Thank you so much for watching and trying. :stroggtapir: :stroggtapir: :stroggtapir: :stroggtapir:

I agree that it could create minor inconvenience between games (it should be a global feature like “inverted”). However, for those who play games with some exclusivity (I played that broke-ass Gears of War for two years straight), the switching back and forth is a non-issue. Ultimately, we have to switch and adjust to every developer’s button layout preference as it is.

My thumbs are really stupid. :wink: It is not just idiosyncratic. For as long as I could stand it (usually about 15 minutes before my hands would cramp up), I used to hold the “duke” controller for the original xbox so that my thumbs would extend straight up on the sticks. For that short 15 minutes, my accuracy in Halo gaming was incomparably better. I would go 15 on 5 off for entire evenings of gaming.

Watch any demonstration of an average gamer playing a game with a controller and you will see that they go all over the place before they finally pinpoint the target - that never changes even after years of gaming! That is because of the alignment of the sticks to thumbs. That is the single most influential factor. The brain keeps telling the thumb where true north should be. It is a constant, continuous process of biofeedback self-correction. Changing “True North” would have a profound affect on my accuracy/steadiness of movement.

When Nintendo made their controller for the N64, they made it so that UP on the stick was a straight extension of the thumb! That was the original design of the first “analogue” stick. After that, all hardware makers starting with Sony (and later even Nintendo themselves), just ignored that fundamental aspect of design, putting the sticks where they were most convenient on the pad, not most easily and accurately used.

Bezzy, if you included a simple stick orientation calibration tool (even just via a hidden menu), I would send you chocolate from Japan, and sing your praises all across the interwebs! It is no small deal, and it is exactly what “noobs” and “ever-noobs” need to make these game easier to control.

I have been asking for this for YEARS!

(At the very least, even if you have to say no, you have my deepest gratitude for being the very first dev to listen let alone try it. )

EDIT:

Yes! @ Cankor

HORSE - that is the problem with the Onza. They made an oversight because there are a lot of people with headsets that won’t be compatible, as much as they would like to buy the controller.

(Bullveyr) #28

The thing is it only works if the mouse is designed to have your on the buttons but for good reasons most mice aren’t.
Btw the SteelSeries Xai is designed that you can use the tumb button by rolling your thumb upwards, at least if you use a palm grip.

As far as adapting to tools, there will always be some amount of adaption required but the goal should always be to make the interface as intuitive and natural as possible so you can get right down to the task at hand. Isn’t this part of what Brink is all about as well?

Allthough I don’t really care for the console folks (:D) it wouldn’t hurt to give that option (dunno how much work it would be) but as long as not almost all games have it I doubt it would really be used.
Someone should build that into a controller, hardware or software solution doesnt matter.

(Bezzy) #29

Yeah, this is a pretty darn complex conversation. There’s a distinction to be made between familiarity and intuitiveness.

Familiarity is about comfort without learning: not asking someone to re-learn what they’re already happy with*. Intuition is the sense of effortless learning.

Intuition in control schemes can’t ignore the familiarity of what has come before, but it also shouldn’t be a slave to it if it just doesn’t fit the game at hand. Rich and I have had a lot of lively debate over using LS click vs. Left Bumper for SMART. LS Click makes sense because of the massive CoD player base. But LB is far more comfortable, and respects the fact that holding SMART is different from tapping it - a distinction that doesn’t exist in CoD.

I guess my point is that this:

is a common misinterpretation of ergonomics. There is no perfect fit which can sell a million, and there is also no one-size fits all that will please everyone sufficiently. It’s always a balance.

*I have a general rule of thumb that a new thing must be 4.245 times better than its predecessor before people will accept an interface change willingly. As tool users, humans are amazing at adapting, but we also probably take a bit too much pride in adapting to inhospitable tools - as if the effort that got us there makes us masters at something, rather than suckers for putting up with horrible interfaces. Take a look at the story at the bottom of this page, about the New Suit.

(Herandar) #30

Took me a good ten seconds to recognize the picture. Thought it was some bizarre chair at first.

Your post reminds me of a anecdote from my past. A long long time ago, I was a dishwasher in a dive bar. I forget why but one of the bartenders wanted to get me a gift. She ordered this beautiful shirt that was handcrafted in Guatemala. The shirt was advertised as one size fits all. I guess all Guatemalans are significantly smaller than I am, because I couldn’t even get it over my head and shoulders. I’m not freakishly large either, though I am above-average (6’3").

(Nail) #31

I guess my point is that this:

is a common misinterpretation of ergonomics

you realize that’s a custom crafted left hand grip on that pistol, desingned for one particular hand, I’d call that ergonomic

(H0RSE) #32

you must have missed what he said after the picture:

is a common misinterpretation of ergonomics. There is no perfect fit which can sell a million, and there is also no one-size fits all that will please everyone sufficiently. It’s always a balance.

A custom grip designed for one particular hand, explains exactly what he was talking about - no one-size fits all.

(Das G) #33

If you choose to go down the path of LS click for SMART, I beg of you to make sure to swap that to the right stick on lefty controls (that’s assuming you will have southpaw controls). There have been developers in the past which have overlooked this small detail and made the game nearly unplayable when I have to try to aim with my left stick and click it at the same time to do a special move. Personally, I would vote for the bumper. Halo3 spoiled me with the bumper jumper control scheme. It was the first time I was actually able to aim and jump in a console fps. No other game has done that since. So as a lefty, I typically have to move my left thumb to the right thumbstick so I can press A with my right thumb.

(3Suns) #34

Bezzy,

Thank you for giving us a glimpse into your design work. You know, every time you and Exedore jump into these threads, I am reassured that not only are you doing everything possible to make this game great, but that you have spent long hours debating the pros and cons of even small (but very important) details of it. And, that you are the experts. Cheers!

:magicpony:

EDIT: I just read the suit story! LOL. Hey, above I meant real expert, not “expert” in the sense of the tailor. :smiley: Good stuff!

(Cankor) #35

[QUOTE=Bullveyr;261361]The thing is it only works if the mouse is designed to have your on the buttons but for good reasons most mice aren’t.
Btw the SteelSeries Xai is designed that you can use the tumb button by rolling your thumb upwards, at least if you use a palm grip.
[/QUOTE]
I have no idea what you are saying in your first sentance, i think you lost some words in an edit or something…

I looked up the Xai and it looks like it has regular front back thumb buttons to me.

@Bezzy: your comment about your internal debate about which button on the controller should be SMART is probably making a lot of console guys nervouse that they won’t be able to re-map the buttons. Maybe you just meant for the “default” controls, but some reassurance might be in order assuming they are indeed re-mappable (I can’t imagine SD making a game where you couldn’t re-map the controls).

(Bullveyr) #36

Oops, I missed the word “thumb” and the end of the sentence: :smiley:

The thing is it only works if the mouse is designed to have your tumb on the buttons but for good reasons most mice aren’t built that way.

You can also put 1 thumb button above and 1 below where your thumb rest on the mouse (Ideazon Reaper Edge + a rebrand from HP) but that is limited by the size and form factor of the mouse.

I looked up the Xai and it looks like it has regular front back thumb buttons to me.

They are in the “regular” position but it’s designed that you can press them by simply rotating your thumb upwards.

In general you really have to think what actions you bind on your mouse buttons because pressing pretty much every button exept the main buttons will cause you to lose some control over the mouse. (more crucial for claw/finger grip than for palm grip).
That’s a reason why I would prefer to have grenades on an extra weapon slot.

(H0RSE) #37

In general you really have to think what actions you bind on your mouse buttons because pressing pretty much every button exept the main buttons will cause you to lose some control over the mouse.

Which is one reason I prefer a trackball.

(Bullveyr) #38

For me that would be having less control all the time. :smiley:

I guess to some lesser degree that’s also true for trackballs

btw, which trackball are you using

PS: Anyone remember the Logitech Wingman Warrior?

(H0RSE) #39

btw, which trackball are you using

Kensington Expert Mouse

I need to buy a new one.

(Cankor) #40

[QUOTE=Bullveyr;261587]You can also put 1 thumb button above and 1 below where your thumb rest on the mouse (Ideazon Reaper Edge + a rebrand from HP) but that is limited by the size and form factor of the mouse.

They are in the “regular” position but it’s designed that you can press them by simply rotating your thumb upwards.

In general you really have to think what actions you bind on your mouse buttons because pressing pretty much every button exept the main buttons will cause you to lose some control over the mouse. (more crucial for claw/finger grip than for palm grip).
That’s a reason why I would prefer to have grenades on an extra weapon slot.[/QUOTE]

OK, I get what you are saying about rolling, I think I’d trather roll down than up though, it seems more natural.

The Reaper has a similar concept as the sidewinder. On the sidewinder though you are using the tip of your thumb though not the pad, so the buttons are very close and it’s easy to hit one or the other. I wish their were three stacked there. Bottom line is you have to move your thumb to clicka button, you just have to move it a lot less on the sidewinder.