Competitive Mode Feedback (Pug/scrim tests)

(INF3RN0) #1

We had our first pug tonight and had some interesting results. It’s going to take a lot more testing to refine our feedback, but some things were very obvious.

Team A:
INF3RN0
Retsy
EnderWiggins
Humate
KidSpooky

Team B:
Bananas
Adhesive
Larry
Thundermuffin
Retriever

Maps Results:
Waterloo Team B Win 0:25s
White Chapel Team A Win (map ended @ completion of escort)

FEEDBACK:

-Defensive timers are too fast and timers in general need to be longer (15-20 for defense/10-15 for offense maybe)
-Forward spawns need hud icons/progress bar and offense needs its own capturable forward spawn
-Revives need to give a short spawn shield to the downed player (maybe delayed ability to shoot on revive also)
-Spawn timer needs to be visible on HUD
-Teammate HP bars need to be more distinguishable
-Waterloo choke point between obj zones needs a redesign
-White Chapel does not work
-FOPs needs to become more vital to the team composition
-Covert could use more team oriented abilities
-Maps still feel too linear, more creative/interactive opportunities need to be present

Additionally limitations on 1 turret 1 mine and possibly 1 soldier may be in order. The general strategy that seemed to work best was to be extremely aggressive in order to capitalize on kills right as they happened. This worked to an extent, but there was an overall feeling of lack of strategy/teamwork and I mostly felt like I had to just kill everyone really quick and get the objective done immediately after. Other than that, we had very close games and saw all the objectives. Additionally, the escort missions become extremely dull- so future reference in objective design.

More to follow as we conduct more pug/scrims. Anyone is free to give their thoughts as well, and I encourage more participation in the next test.

(Humate) #2

Defensive timers are too fast and timers in general need to be longer

Yep. A constant flow of defenders, trumps an attacking team gaining area control.
Especially given the current spawn positions. Its understandable that players want to be amongst the action as much as possible, but I think with 1st person spectate, kill cams etc it wont matter so much.

(Mustang) #3

I didn’t attend but have a comment regarding EV escort being dull.

Would it have helped if the EV moved faster (and perhaps Fops airstrike/artillery locked-on faster to compensate)?

(Anti) #4

I think you wont really see strategies appear until we have a number of clans playing regularly, there just wont be the competition to drive any sort of meta-game or quality strats. Plus, it’ll need a good quantity of matches before teams really start to figure out how that’ll work though.

Definitely keep these kind of tests up, they will help us, even this early and with mixed teams. If you do do these kind of matches it’d be great if you could leave us details of the time you played at and on which server you played. This allows me to grab the server demos and watch the matches back to see how they went, as well as making it easier for me to grab the stats data from Echo.

We’re super keen to make the game work for comp, especially in 5v5, and if possible make sure the rules that make this work also find their way in to public play so that we’re not splitting the comp and casual communities.

(Thundermuffin) #5

I just wanted to point out on Waterloo at the chokepoint between objectives that to me it didn’t make sense to have a staircase that takes you up and then the only place to go from there is down to the chokepoint; I felt like that by going up to the second story I should either have a view outside to kill or be placed a good distance away from that 1 choke to try to get out from there or, if no one is paying attention, to backrage the rest of the team. Right now you’re just lobbed into that one spot with the rest of your team and concussion grenades, turrets, and other grenades could easily hold a mediocre team there for forever vs a coordinated team. Maybe I missed something because at certain points I was getting frustrated with my subpar FPS, but I just don’t remember seeing anywhere else to go.

I really disliked the last bit of White Chapel; it’s the first time I ever got to play it (usually fullholds on the data core objective or on that last little bit of push to the elevator), but it just seemed like everything was so close together and I felt like I was being herded down a few paths into my death, instead of being able to use an open map and create my own route.

I hate how flashbangs affect your ability to move. I don’t understand why they’re implemented in a way that kills your ability to move your crosshair, other than to create a “realistic” effect. That’s no fun at all for me, as some of my most memorable frags in CS come from being flashbanged and using sound to headshot people. Right now I feel like when I’m flashbanged, not only can I not really shootback unless the other person is completely still too, but I can’t even try to run away as everything feels way too slowed down.

My biggest complaint of the night, though, comes from the movement still; I can tell a major difference without that slowdown on hit effect, but I still feel like I’m carrying 300 pounds. If we can’t have strafejumping or some kind of movement system that separates people from those who can think outside the box, can we at least have the ability to jump nonstop like in TF2? I hate it when games don’t let you continuously jump, especially when they aren’t rewarding me for doing it by letting me gain speed or something. I’m already supposed to be punished for jumping in most games by an increased spread, so why not let me shoot myself in the foot more? Something about just being able to jump nonstop makes the game feel faster to me, but it still isn’t what I really want (strafejumping or bunnyhopping like in CSS).

If you do that, please please please turn on aircontrol. There were so many moments last night that I knew someone was right around a corner and had it been CS or ETQW I would have done a 2 jump hop to go through a doorway and surprise them; however, in DB I know that I can jump twice in a row but I’ll only go straight without being able to control myself no matter how much I press A/D and move my mouse. It’s just frustrating as a player to have something like that you’ve become so accustomed to in every game become something the game won’t let you do.

I just wish that my performance was a little better and I’m hoping that when it’s fully optimized that the config I’m running now will keep me at a solid 60+ FPS. It’s so jarring to have firefights become 20 to 30 FPS even when you’ve turned everything to low and it’s your CPU holding you back. :frowning:

(SockDog) #6

Are you sure these aren’t concussion grenades?

(Thundermuffin) #7

It may have been a concussion grenade + flashbang combo, because my screen went completely white and when it finally started to come back my ability to aim was slowed. Do concussion grenades blind you as well? I play with DoF off, so nothing actually affects me at all and last night was the first time I tried playing with it on (was sick of the haze and not being able to clearly see enemies).

Whatever it was, its effect was not warranted and I can’t imagine why you would place it there; even precision games like CS don’t have something so jarring in them to affect the players beyond a piercing sound and a white screen.

(SockDog) #8

Anti was lobbing them around like party favours the other day and Stealth was saying the same as you so I’m guessing this is intended. I don’t think it’s that bad an idea, as you say with a flashbang you can still move and spray (even make some instinctive shots) but why not have something which stuns you and impacts your ability to move.

(INF3RN0) #9

[QUOTE=Anti;415462]I think you wont really see strategies appear until we have a number of clans playing regularly, there just wont be the competition to drive any sort of meta-game or quality strats. Plus, it’ll need a good quantity of matches before teams really start to figure out how that’ll work though.

Definitely keep these kind of tests up, they will help us, even this early and with mixed teams. If you do do these kind of matches it’d be great if you could leave us details of the time you played at and on which server you played. This allows me to grab the server demos and watch the matches back to see how they went, as well as making it easier for me to grab the stats data from Echo.
[/QUOTE]

The test matches occurred on 12/16/2012 around 7pm PST on the USA sw server. As for the meta-game, I strongly believe that you will get the same response from beta if the spawn timers do not increase. No one wants to see the same defensive bias that happened in Brink- mostly due to unbalanced spawn timers. There’s definitely a strategical element that can’t be tested until OBT when well organized teams arrive, but it’s very obvious to most of us at this time that when that day comes the issue with spawn times is going to become an even bigger problem.

(INF3RN0) #10

Those were my concussion grenades btw.

(Thundermuffin) #11

Because movement is something that this game just doesn’t have down well at all yet, so there’s no reason to add more salt to that wound. Maybe when SD fixes the movement system, we can all take a good hard look and see if conc grenades affecting movement have a place in the game (and I may totally be willing to change my mind if there’s a way that I can have an effect on my chances to live), but right now they were always a death note, unless your team is there to back you up every time or you happen to get hit around a corner and the thrower is far away.

(SockDog) #12

You may feel the effect is overpowered and unnecessary or that the number of grenades is too high but I personally don’t see more than a tenuous connection between the game’s movement mechanics and those of a special grenade type. If it was a high explosive grenade that near on killed you would you blame movement or the grenade?

Perhaps a different way to look at this then would be how do you feel a concussion grenade should impact a player? Different visual effect? Something like double vision rather than the white of a flashbang? Is it even worth using if the effect is ultimately the same?

(Thundermuffin) #13

[QUOTE=SockDog;415688]You may feel the effect is overpowered and unnecessary or that the number of grenades is too high but I personally don’t see more than a tenuous connection between the game’s movement mechanics and those of a special grenade type. If it was a high explosive grenade that near on killed you would you blame movement or the grenade?

Perhaps a different way to look at this then would be how do you feel a concussion grenade should impact a player? Different visual effect? Something like double vision rather than the white of a flashbang? Is it even worth using if the effect is ultimately the same?[/QUOTE]
Let’s put it this way:

I don’t mind a hard-hitting grenade, nor do I mind a grenade making my screen go white or some other visual effect (as long as it isn’t some nauseating effect).

I feel like a concussion grenade (maybe it should be renamed based on what I’m about to say) should whiten the player’s screen as it does now and then create a lot of contrast when the player’s screen starts to come back to normal (that effect is disorienting enough, imo). It really should pack a big punch, as it’s a special grenade; however, that’s where the punishment should end. The grenade should not limit my ability to aim, nor should it make me feel like I’m a slow-moving war hero.

I would get hit with them a lot last night and I would know how I needed to react (like how far to move my mouse to line up a shot to a doorway where I knew INF3RN0 would come in), but when I would “come to” my mouse would be no where near where I wanted it, and I wasn’t able to really do anything to control my player’s movements, because those also felt slowed down.

Why punish me for knowing how far it takes to move my mouse? Why punish me for actually being aware of my surroundings and wishing to use them to take cover? If I know it’s 5 steps to the left and 10 steps back to hide behind a corner, let me make those movements at full speed. If I know my mouse needs to move up and to the left an inch, let me line that shot up and take it. Let my skill try to save me from the grenade I walked into, don’t make me rely on my teammates to always be my saving grace.

By the way, the connection to the movement comes in from the horrible slowdown effect on everything that the concussion grenade causes. As a player I already feel too immobile in DB, don’t make that impression even worse.

(Runeforce) #14

Forward spawns? Did I miss them? Because I have not seem them. But I would like them (on both offense and defense. IMO ETQW did it best :slight_smile: with a 6 second capture (for one person, half of that with two persons etc.) and freelook while capturing (as opposed to ET’s instant capture and Brink’s locking-in.))

And I liked Brink’s two neutral command posts, which each gave you a different buff (weapon damage (?) and health buff.)

(INF3RN0) #15

Another pug tonight that ran through every map and LB 2x. December 17th @ 8-10pm PST on USA 07 private SW. For demo reference.

(Bananas) #16

[QUOTE=INF3RN0;415805]Another pug tonight that ran through every map and LB 2x. December 17th @ 8-10pm PST. For demo reference.[/QUOTE]Devs should look at these demos. I thought the games showed some interesting things.

Also it showed how much I suck.

(stealth6) #17

[QUOTE=lakersforce;415756]Forward spawns? Did I miss them? Because I have not seem them. But I would like them (on both offense and defense. IMO ETQW did it best :slight_smile: with a 6 second capture (for one person, half of that with two persons etc.) and freelook while capturing (as opposed to ET’s instant capture and Brink’s locking-in.))

And I liked Brink’s two neutral command posts, which each gave you a different buff (weapon damage (?) and health buff.)[/QUOTE]

There’s a forward spawn on Waterloo, you have to stand in the circle of lights opposite the gate. The machine in the middle has a “progress bar” (an antenna and something slides up and down it to display progress)

(SinDonor) #18

The circle of lights on the ground slowly change from blue to white to red/orange as well (or vice versa for the other team).

(Runeforce) #19

Oh yeah, silly me, forgot about that one.

(Anti) #20

I watched the two maps from the first PUG. I loved the initial rush to the wall objective on the second half of Waterloo, where the attackers sneaked behind the entire defending team to plant. Might have to ban Amazinglarry for his glitched plant though, naughty boy! :smiley:

I tried to grab some Echo data for those matches as well but unfortunately it turns out there was a config error on the US servers, so they weren’t reported. This has now been fixed though which is good.